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Joined: Oct 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by svtcarboy:
A correct (and much quicker and broader) application of the death penalty, along with more sensible sentencing guidelines for many offenses (drug use offenses is a leading cause of prison overcrowding where treatment is more assured of success at a lower cost).
I agree with this. And I completely agree with George Carlin's take on it. Start placing the death penalty on corrupt accountants and bankers, the ones who really make crime profitable. THEY are the ones who fear death. If someone realizes that just because they moved one decimal place in a financial statement for the betterment of ANY criminal, be it gang member, drug dealer, or international terrorist, they'll DIE for it instead of just being fired and getting a slap on the wrist, you'll see a serious decrease in crime.
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,143
Hard-core CEG'er
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,143 |
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Pete: Your statements reek with socialism. Government is not the provider of the people, rather the other way around. Our government does not make money (well technically they print it...) so the only way it gets money to give back to the people is through taxes. Now why would I want to give my money to the government so they can give it to other people? Our government was not created to make all people even; if you want that, theres a bunch of countries in Eastern Europe that would be glad to take the money you make and redistribute it. I am far from being in a weatlthy economic class, and I still don't want the government to take my money and spend as they see fit.
I think you might be missing part of my point about social programs funded by taxes. It's more of a proactive aproach than a reactive one, not a bad idea if you ask me.
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To quote the words of a Democrat (whom I respect greatly) "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you: Ask what you can do for your country." -JFK
I don't understand why people think that the government has the most streamlined and well thought out ways of handling your money, and that they will do a better job with it than you can. No, our government is full of wasteful spending in all aspects.
I agree the government isn't the best with money, and can be quite ineffecient, however I think this is more of a problem with our government than governments in general.
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This is not what our government was founded on, brought up to be, or God willing what it will be. Hell, if you take the most absolute literal reading of the intentions of the founding fathers, they wanted federal government for only the protection of the people. Now clearly this isn't possible in todays modern society, but we get further and further from that ideal with every social program designed to redistribute wealth.
Quoting the interpretations of the founding fathers is a slippery slope. Keep in mind that they created the constitution in a building with the shutters locked in secrecy. Furthermore, the articles of confederation failed because it gave the states too much power and too little cental power, plus the "founding fathers" were a little concerned about themselves, and made some decisons reflectiong that. Furthermore, they only gave the right to vote to white, landholding men, some food for thought. I don't think wealth should be redistributed 100%, that isn't right. But the huge gaps we have between the rich and the poor only keep growing, what do you propose we do?
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You also speak of poverty being a problem in this nation. Well, if I were to take the news of all the new jobs created this year alone, and give the democrats their claim of them being all minimum wage jobs, there is no excuse for their being poverty in this nation. If you are telling me that there are some people that really do look for a job, but can't find one anywhere, I would respectfully call you a liar. Anyone can qualify for a minimum wage job in some field. Even mentally retarded people can get jobs in places created especially for them. The only way that you would be in such poverty that you don't know where your next meal is comming from is that you are not going out and finding a job for yourself.
I think we already established that a minumum wage job isn't a living wage. As far as jobs, poverty and unemployment, I might suggest taking a course in Macroeconomics. You said you are a college student, so it shouldn't be that hard to find one 
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I'll tell what, you can live in the area of the country I am in on $1000 a month, but it requires you make sacrifices, which so many people are not willing to do. This reminds me of a class I was in a few months back. This woman was giving this sob story of how DHS was going to take her kids, and this and that, because she couldn't afford to buy or keep her child's clothing clean. Now keep in mind, I am in college, so this woman could afford to send herself to college. So she goes on about how she has a low paying job, too many bills, her welfare and food stamps wont cover all her bills, etc etc. Well, I would almost feel bad for her if she werent wearing name brand clothes, nice new shoes, and then as soon as she steps out of the class room her ear becomes glued to a cell phone. This, by the way, is the norm around here, not the exception.
I don't argue this at all. In our overly materialistic society often low income people feel the need to make it appear like they have more money than they actually do, it is reather sad.
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And finally, your uninformed cheap shots at the Fox News Network are completly wacked out, there is nothing Nazi about the Fox News. Because it doesn't get its information and print stories straight from the 'democratic handbook of how to create a socialist America,' like you apparantly do, doesn't make them a bad news channel.
Uninformed about the Fox News Channel? Nope, it's on in my living room right now. My stepfather watches it probably 4hrs a day at least. They have some of the most tilted coverage I have seen. Although I will admit there are no media outlets in america that I feel are actually 100% objective.
FWIW, I don't consider myself a democrat. Heck, in HS I was in the young republicans club. 
"Bros before Hoes" <-- More men need this mentality.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118 |
Originally posted by Pete D:
I think you might be missing part of my point about social programs funded by taxes. It's more of a proactive aproach than a reactive one, not a bad idea if you ask me.
Thats right, if we ask you, which means in your opinion. I,however, do have a problem with government proactivly, or reactively supporting the lower classes with the money from those that have it.
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Quoting the interpretations of the founding fathers is a slippery slope. Keep in mind that they created the constitution in a building with the shutters locked in secrecy. Furthermore, the articles of confederation failed because it gave the states too much power and too little cental power, plus the "founding fathers" were a little concerned about themselves, and made some decisons reflectiong that. Furthermore, they only gave the right to vote to white, landholding men, some food for thought. I don't think wealth should be redistributed 100%, that isn't right. But the huge gaps we have between the rich and the poor only keep growing, what do you propose we do?
No, if you read this part of the post I do indeed say that we can not take what they said 100% literally anymore. Yes, they made mistakes (slavery, men voting only, etc) but back then, these were not as taboo and seen wrong by society as thy are today. Your right, things change, but one thing we do know for sure is that communism doesn't work. And I don't understand why you see the gaps between the rich and the poor to be a problem? There is room in America for everyone to make a good living for themselves if they try. I have absolutely no problem knowing the fact that I will never be a billionaire, sure it would be nice, but it wont happen. Everyone has the chance to make a decent living, if they want to being the key question. So to answer you directly, I would do not a damn thing.
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I think we already established that a minumum wage job isn't a living wage. As far as jobs, poverty and unemployment, I might suggest taking a course in Macroeconomics. You said you are a college student, so it shouldn't be that hard to find one
If you are at the point in your life where you are STILL working a minimum wage job AND trying to support at least yourself, then YOU messed up, not me...
I have taken 2 economics classes in college, micro and macro, I don't see what that has to do with being able to work hard and elevate yourself out of the minimum wage paying job.
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I don't argue this at all. In our overly materialistic society often low income people feel the need to make it appear like they have more money than they actually do, it is reather sad.
Don't blame society for people like this, they made themselves. Also, in this one case, in the part of the country I am in, appearing to have money is not a very high priority (can we say, white trash).
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Uninformed about the Fox News Channel? Nope, it's on in my living room right now. My stepfather watches it probably 4hrs a day at least. They have some of the most tilted coverage I have seen. Although I will admit there are no media outlets in america that I feel are actually 100% objective.
You say tilted, I say better. Obviously more agree with me than not, as their ratings are far more than any other cable news station. But this debate is old and IMHO tired...
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FWIW, I don't consider myself a democrat. Heck, in HS I was in the young republicans club.
Not calling you a liar, but I find that extremely hard to believe, given your current political views. But people do change. -Nick
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,667
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,667 |
Originally posted by Pete D:
I think we already established that a minumum wage job isn't a living wage. As far as jobs, poverty and unemployment, I might suggest taking a course in Macroeconomics. You said you are a college student, so it shouldn't be that hard to find one
Minimum wage, in my opinion, is for the dime-a-dozen jobs at McDonalds where you have zero responsibility, zero accountability, and the job description is designed for the type of person who SHOULD be making minimum wage... an unskilled teenager... someone without a family to support. If you don't like being paid minimum wage, acquire some skills, work ethic, timeliness, etc and get a higher paying job. I've held a job since I was 12 years old and have never been paid minimum wage because I had training, applicable skills, good work ethic, I was not a pain in the ass always arguing with my boss, and i showed up for work on time. Are these things so difficult?
You should head back to your Macroeconomics course yourself and ask the professor about the differences between "cyclical" unemployment and "structural" unemployment. In down times, such as the recent mini-recession, there is structural unemployment, where there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. In normal times or up times, such as now, there is cyclical unemployment, which means the unemployed are generally between jobs, moving around, etc. Many an economist has said that a nominal amount of unemployment is in fact a good thing because it always provides a fresh crop of people ready to start a new job immediately.
So I ask you... regarding jobs, poverty, and unemployment... these people that have been unemployed so long as to drop below the poverty line and take welfare, etc... why don't they have jobs? Is it because there simply aren't any out there? (possible, but unlikely) Is it because there hasn't been a single person hiring in the three years Bush has been in office? (now completely impossible), or is it because of some other factor?
I would venture a guess at number 3...
Diesel owns you
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,143
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Thats right, if we ask you, which means in your opinion. I,however, do have a problem with government proactivly, or reactively supporting the lower classes with the money from those that have it.
The point of a proactive approach is that it prevents things like poverty and crime. Your taxes pay for law enforcement and prisons (reactive). Apparently, you don't support either
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but one thing we do know for sure is that communism doesn't work. And I don't understand why you see the gaps between the rich and the poor to be a problem? There is room in America for everyone to make a good living for themselves if they try. I have absolutely no problem knowing the fact that I will never be a billionaire, sure it would be nice, but it wont happen. Everyone has the chance to make a decent living, if they want to being the key question. So to answer you directly, I would do not a damn thing.
I never said communism worked. I don't regard most of the western European countries as communist countries, they do have more social support for their citizens however.
I think you are being a little idealistic if you think everyone in this country has a chance to be what they want to be. While sure I suppose it is possible, it's pretty unlikely to happen with all the poverty and degredation. Someone's environment play a huge role in the type of person they are, and will be.
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If you are at the point in your life where you are STILL working a minimum wage job AND trying to support at least yourself, then YOU messed up, not me...
I have taken 2 economics classes in college, micro and macro, I don't see what that has to do with being able to work hard and elevate yourself out of the minimum wage paying job.
I would have assumed they would help you understand things like taxes, fiscal policy, unemployment, etc. I guess we know what happens when you assume...
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Don't blame society for people like this, they made themselves. Also, in this one case, in the part of the country I am in, appearing to have money is not a very high priority (can we say, white trash).
How can you not blame society? Are you saying that if that person had lived in a cave until this point in their life they would be the same? White trash like to outdo each other (show how much $$$ they have) they just choose to do it by seeing who has the newest IROC 
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You say tilted, I say better. Obviously more agree with me than not, as their ratings are far more than any other cable news station. But this debate is old and IMHO tired...
Just because they have the best ratings doesn't mean much to me. Friends had great ratings for years and I thought it sucked.
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You should head back to your Macroeconomics course yourself and ask the professor about the differences between "cyclical" unemployment and "structural" unemployment. In down times, such as the recent mini-recession, there is structural unemployment, where there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. In normal times or up times, such as now, there is cyclical unemployment, which means the unemployed are generally between jobs, moving around, etc. Many an economist has said that a nominal amount of unemployment is in fact a good thing because it always provides a fresh crop of people ready to start a new job immediately
I know the difference between the two. If you would like to start a thread on the economy in this country and the current administration I am all ears.
"Bros before Hoes" <-- More men need this mentality.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118 |
Originally posted by Pete D:
The point of a proactive approach is that it prevents things like poverty and crime. Your taxes pay for law enforcement and prisons (reactive). Apparently, you don't support either
Your putting words in my mouth, I never said that government should just not do a damn thing! Yes, police and prisons are something they should be in. Prolonged welfare, handouts, socialist health care are some examples of where government doesn't need to be. Government is mainly for the safety and protection of the people, not to support and make a living for people.
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I never said communism worked. I don't regard most of the western European countries as communist countries, they do have more social support for their citizens however.
I think you are being a little idealistic if you think everyone in this country has a chance to be what they want to be. While sure I suppose it is possible, it's pretty unlikely to happen with all the poverty and degredation. Someone's environment play a huge role in the type of person they are, and will be.
No, the words "communism works wonderfully" have not come out of your mouth, but you sure do apparantly want us to take steps towards it. I do regard most of the western European countries as socialist. Those governments are there primarily for the redistribution of wealth through government programs and high taxes.
I sure as hell aren't being idealistic. While everyone might not have the chance to have a Corvette in the garage, they sure as hell have a chance to not worry about where their next meal will come from. At $5.50 an hour, along with all the government programs I am sure you would be on, you can most definately make a living. I would love to see where "all the poverty and degredation," in this country are. Sure we have our share of problems of that nature, but I am pretty sure Sally Struthers hasn't filmed any Save The Children commercials here lately. I live in an area considered the 3rd poorest area in the country right now, and I can tell you there is no one starving around here.
Of course your environment play into what you become, but there is no one holding you in your ghetto's like the nazis did to the Jews. Now theres a group of people that didn't have a chance in hell, but they didn't destroy their neighborhoods like people do in America today.
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I would have assumed they would help you understand things like taxes, fiscal policy, unemployment, etc. I guess we know what happens when you assume...
What this statement has to do with anything, other than an attack on my intelligence, I have no idea. So, what would I learn in this macrocommunism class that you are teaching that I don't know?
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How can you not blame society? Are you saying that if that person had lived in a cave until this point in their life they would be the same? White trash like to outdo each other (show how much $$$ they have) they just choose to do it by seeing who has the newest IROC
I don't care what generalizations you want to make, the fact is if you want to make something of yourself in this country you can. I don't care if your black, white, rich, poor. There are plenty of oppertunities if you try hard enough; and I will say them, the most taboo words in todays society WORK HARD YOURSELF. I have seen poor black men and women do great things with their lives, as well as I have gone to highschool with rich white kids who are 22 and still going from one minimum wage to another.
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Just because they have the best ratings doesn't mean much to me. Friends had great ratings for years and I thought it sucked.
It doesn't have to mean anything to you, numbers don't lie. What you choose to do with them, believe them or not, doesn't matter. -Nick
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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