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Originally posted by ODC:
Moore needs to stop acting like a tabloid.
He has some good ideas, but he's too sensationalistic and lies about a lot of facts.
He gets the same amount of credibility as the The Globe newpaper to me.
Couldn't have said it better than myself. I enjoy the heck out of his works, but for some reason a not insignificant portion of the US population seems to take his "mockumentaries" as gospel.
As an artist, I think he's excellent. As a political force, I equivocate him right up there with a port-a-potty because he's so full of s**t in that arena.
I'll go and see Farenheit 9/11, but I fully expect it to be about as relevant to the entire 9/11 saga and the Iraqi invasion as "Bowling for Columbine" was in terms of addressing gun control.
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Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
You don't have to agree with him, but to wish and hope for his death is childish and shows a lack of open-mindedness. It would be just as inappropriate for me to wish the following: "I hope Rush Limbaugh dies from an Oxycontin OD, and when his fat corpse falls to the ground he lands on Bill O'Reilly and suffocates him."
I don't see how wishing for someone's death is indicative of a lack of open-mindedness. I wish Osama bin Laden was dead. Damn that's close-minded! There are some people I see as harmful to others, whose departure from this Earth would benefit a great many people.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Michael Moore isn't going to bring the apocolypse by airing his ideas. I personally was offended by his outburts at last year's Oscars. But then again, I believed the administration's stance on the War in Iraq at the time. I even listened to the entire Powell UN presentation.
Now that the argument for the war has pretty much been shown to be false (read the 9/11 comission reports and the CIA's releases owning up to the faulty intelligence used for that presentation, and show me the WMDs), it seems like Michael Moore was the smartest person in the building at the time.
Not to make this thread into an argument about the Iraq War, but.... 1) the 9/11 Commission has nothing to do with the Iraq War, even though the media is trying to make you think its great revelations do in fact have something to do with the war. 2) We didn't go to war based on the faulty intelligence, again, even though the media is trying to make you believe we did. 3) We have found many WMDs in Iraq. You just haven't seen the reports because the media has been busy reporting the Abu Ghraid prison "scandal".
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Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
You don't have to agree with him, but to wish and hope for his death is childish and shows a lack of open-mindedness. It would be just as inappropriate for me to wish the following: "I hope Rush Limbaugh dies from an Oxycontin OD, and when his fat corpse falls to the ground he lands on Bill O'Reilly and suffocates him."
I don't see how wishing for someone's death is indicative of a lack of open-mindedness. I wish Osama bin Laden was dead. Damn that's close-minded! There are some people I see as harmful to others, whose departure from this Earth would benefit a great many people.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Michael Moore isn't going to bring the apocolypse by airing his ideas. I personally was offended by his outburts at last year's Oscars. But then again, I believed the administration's stance on the War in Iraq at the time. I even listened to the entire Powell UN presentation.
Now that the argument for the war has pretty much been shown to be false (read the 9/11 comission reports and the CIA's releases owning up to the faulty intelligence used for that presentation, and show me the WMDs), it seems like Michael Moore was the smartest person in the building at the time.
Not to make this thread into an argument about the Iraq War, but.... 1) the 9/11 Commission has nothing to do with the Iraq War, even though the media is trying to make you think its great revelations do in fact have something to do with the war. 2) We didn't go to war based on the faulty intelligence, again, even though the media is trying to make you believe we did. 3) We have found many WMDs in Iraq. You just haven't seen the reports because the media has been busy reporting the Abu Ghraid prison "scandal".
Interesting Davo, you seem to know all this information. How about you tell the rest of the world.
Now I hate America? That is a new one to me.
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Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
I don't see how wishing for someone's death is indicative of a lack of open-mindedness. I wish Osama bin Laden was dead. Damn that's close-minded! There are some people I see as harmful to others, whose departure from this Earth would benefit a great many people.
Helz yeah I want OBL dead. Not because I disagree with his views, but because he was responsible for the deaths of 3000+ innocent people.
To think that only agreeing with your views serves the betterment of mankind is pompous. To think that anyone who disagrees with your views should be dead for the betterment of mankind is completely self-centered and despicable. To think that you are in any position to determine who should live and die for the betterment of mankind is frightening, actually.
Here's a point: I can name one very prominent person who belives that all people that don't agree with him should be put to death. His name is Osama bin Laden.
Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
Not to make this thread into an argument about the Iraq War, but.... 1) the 9/11 Commission has nothing to do with the Iraq War, even though the media is trying to make you think its great revelations do in fact have something to do with the war.
Wow, you are terribly ignorant. The 9/11 commission has been charged with directly investigating ties between al-Queda and Iraq and found none. Iraq's ties to A-Q was a central point in Bush's argument for war now and it seems there aren't any credible ties at all besides A-Q trying to establish some relationship and Iraq ignoring them.
Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
2) We didn't go to war based on the faulty intelligence, again, even though the media is trying to make you believe we did.
So, what, Tenet and Clark are making this up? And Tenet lied to a congressional committee? I guess the fact that Clark isn't a Bush yes-man anymore makes him less credible in your book.
Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
3) We have found many WMDs in Iraq. You just haven't seen the reports because the media has been busy reporting the Abu Ghraid prison "scandal".
Wow, oh wow. You don't think that O'Reilly and Limbaugh (and Tony Blair and Pres. Bush) would be shouting it from the rooftops if we had found some? I seem to remember that when the troops found 'suspected' WMD sites, it was all over the news, until tests showed they weren't what they first appeared to be.
And here's a problem with your argument that Moore should have released Abu Gharib abuse photos as soon as he had them: You damn him for not releasing them. You damn the media for covering the scandal. So, if holding the images is wrong, and releasing the images is wrong, what exactly should be done?
Nobody should hold views that cannot stand in the presence of dissent. Fortunately for you, this country is founded on the premise that all people are free to believe what they want, and free to present their views in an open and fair forum. So continue to believe what you want to believe, but to become a more complete person you really should allow yourself to let those views be tempered with those that are in opposition to them.
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Just a thought... Couldn't Moore be held legally culpable for willingly and knowingly withholding evidence (prisoner mistreatment) and not reporting it to the proper authorities, if he had it before the media broke the story? I mean, if the guy had VIDEOTAPE of this s**t and didn't report it, that speaks volumes of his moral character, no? It certainly would be a fun witch-hunt to embark upon... 
JaTo
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Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
To think that only agreeing with your views serves the betterment of mankind is pompous. To think that anyone who disagrees with your views should be dead for the betterment of mankind is completely self-centered and despicable. To think that you are in any position to determine who should live and die for the betterment of mankind is frightening, actually.
Find where I said people should die because they disagree with me. I'm not going to try to kill Michael Moore. I just said if his arteries turned to cement and he was staring at the roof of the church, I wouldn't care too much.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Wow, you are terribly ignorant. The 9/11 commission has been charged with directly investigating ties between al-Queda and Iraq and found none. Iraq's ties to A-Q was a central point in Bush's argument for war now and it seems there aren't any credible ties at all besides A-Q trying to establish some relationship and Iraq ignoring them.
Part of the 9/11 Commission's investigations may have included al-Qaeda's ties to Iraq, but that was not the purpose of the Commission. I suggest a fact check.
Bush's argument for war involved the terrorist environment that exists in Iraq, and the chances that they will try to strike us. We have some shady evidence that al-Qaeda and Iraq were connected, but that wasn't our reason for going to war with them.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Originally posted by Davo7SVT:
2) We didn't go to war based on the faulty intelligence, again, even though the media is trying to make you believe we did.
So, what, Tenet and Clark are making this up? And Tenet lied to a congressional committee? I guess the fact that Clark isn't a Bush yes-man anymore makes him less credible in your book.
I say again: We didn't go to war based on the faulty intelligence. I'm not saying there was no faulty intelligence, I'm just saying we didn't go to war based on information we had from that intelligence.
Clark is less credible because the things he said under oath and the things he said in his book do not match, not because he no longer works for Bush.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Wow, oh wow. You don't think that O'Reilly and Limbaugh (and Tony Blair and Pres. Bush) would be shouting it from the rooftops if we had found some? I seem to remember that when the troops found 'suspected' WMD sites, it was all over the news, until tests showed they weren't what they first appeared to be.
Everyone makes excuses as to why the WMDs we find don't "count". We found Sarin gas-tipped artillery shells in Baghdad not too long ago. Do those count?
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
And here's a problem with your argument that Moore should have released Abu Gharib abuse photos as soon as he had them: You damn him for not releasing them. You damn the media for covering the scandal. So, if holding the images is wrong, and releasing the images is wrong, what exactly should be done?
I never said he should have released the photos. I'm saying if he really cared about the Iraqis in that prison (like he says he does) then he would have released the pictures to the authorities long ago instead of waiting for the extra publicity he could generate for his movie by releasing them now. If he would have released the pictures earlier, then maybe fewer people would have been abused. My hunch is that he really doesn't care.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Nobody should hold views that cannot stand in the presence of dissent. Fortunately for you, this country is founded on the premise that all people are free to believe what they want, and free to present their views in an open and fair forum. So continue to believe what you want to believe, but to become a more complete person you really should allow yourself to let those views be tempered with those that are in opposition to them.
I don't really know what that last line means. It doesn't make any sense. But I think what you're saying is that to be a more complete person I have to "open my mind". My mind is open. Because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. I'm not going to go see Moore's movie, because I've already heard what he has to say. The "mainstream" media has done a good job of making sure I know where he stands.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Just a thought...
Couldn't Moore be held legally culpable for willingly and knowingly withholding evidence (prisoner mistreatment) and not reporting it to the proper authorities, if he had it before the media broke the story?
I mean, if the guy had VIDEOTAPE of this s**t and didn't report it, that speaks volumes of his moral character, no?
It certainly would be a fun witch-hunt to embark upon...
I was thinking the same thing. That also hold true for people on the other side.. i.e Anne Coulter and a few members on this board. 
The fact of the matter is nobody knows whats going on other then the people at the top. What we all say here is speculation meant for a discussion. The problem is people tend to make outlandish statements and proceed to mouth them off like facts.
By the way, If WMD's were found you can best believe every news station in the western world would be reporting it for tne next year. To think otherwise is absurd.
Last edited by Antonio; 06/20/04 09:11 PM.
Now I hate America? That is a new one to me.
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Originally posted by Antonio:
I was thinking the same thing. That also hold true for people on the other side.. i.e Anne Colter and a few members on this board.
By the way, If WMD's were found you can best believe every news station in the western world would be reporting it for tne next year. To think otherwise is absurd.
I don't think people on this board and/or Anne Coulter have ever been given a moral responsibility such as Michael Moore was when given the photos of the prioner abuse.
WMDs were found. The news was picked up for a couple minutes in between coverage of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse. Apparently the Sarin gas-tipped artillery shells were not "enough" WMD to really count as WMD.
The really large stockpiles that were created will take a long time to find, that is if they are still within Iraqi borders, which I doubt.
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even though the sensationalism and far left approach of moore's work itself is enough to discredit the movie for some people (agreed there's a lot of bs to wade through), the truth is there are many real issues and questions he brings up that won't garner as much attention as they should. real issues and questions that will be brushed off as liberal hogwash by the uber conservatives without further investigation.
...and as far as the pictures go it makes no sense to blame a civilian for not policing the military. rumsfeld (and likely a few other higher-ups) knew about the pictures before the story broke, to me that make them more responsible since that's their job.
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Quote:
WMDs were found. The news was picked up for a couple minutes in between coverage of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse. Apparently the Sarin gas-tipped artillery shells were not "enough" WMD to really count as WMD.
That is not at all why the story was dropped.
The story was heavily covered at the time by every major news network for over 3 days -- until investigations found the shells dated from before the first Persian Gulf War (back when we knew he had WMDs) and the investigation concluded that the shells were likely misplaced, misappropriated, or stolen from a (later destroyed by UN-regulations) stockpile. They were not proof of a continuing WMD program so the story wasn't important anymore.
We have yet to find any concrete evidence of a WMD program that continued after sanctions. That is the crucial evidence that is needed to be found.
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