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Veteran CEG\'er
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I don't think R-12 is allowed to be manufactured anymore. Any that is available is recovered from existing R-12 systems.
-Mark-
'99 Mystique LS, totally original (including the original water pump and the premium stereo)! Bought new in December 1998 for $21,000.
208,000 miles
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Not in the US but Mexico can and if you take a test and your shop is certifitied (you pay some govt official money) you can buy it. My friend has been able to buy it
To me it's all about control over the public. manipulation?
Paul
public apathy
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by AthlonSeven:
Yeah, apparently (I think) the Japanese have perfected using CO2 as a coolant! Now why didn't the chemical companies think of that in the first place? The answer, of course, is a simple as this... $
After the dire warning, I'm thinking of taking my car to the shop now... How much does a regular A/C checkup and servicing cost?
BMW is using CO2 in Europe.
CO2 is less efficient than 134a. It needs to run at much higher pressures than 134a so requires heavier hoses and heat exchangers. Compressor uses more HP. The capacity for the system, size for size is less and cars don't have a lot of engine compartment room.
The system works in Germany because the climate is milder so a lower capacity system is acceptable.
Originally posted by F111D F:
Just like 134a has been found to causing more problems than R-12. DUH
Nothing more than big business lobbying politicians all in the disguise of ozone layer. This is one of bigger rip-offs for the American consumer. Why else has the EPA required the A/C shops recover 134a and return the old stuff for safe disposal? But the public been allowed to vent it???? Sounds like Wisconsin's wiser than DC.
134a will be pulled off the market in the future.
Remember all the noise about converting your R-12 system to 134a,all big rip-off to keep money moving in the economy for the greedy rich (that covers the majority that's behind the scam.) R-12 is still available, it never was removed as far as the repair shops (EPA discourage them for using it),just more expensive $600-$1000 for a 30lb can vs. $34 15 years ago.
Chlorine's the component in Freon that causes the supposed problem. Nature produces 99% of chlorine that's supposedly damaging the ozone, Freon equipment less than approx 1/10th of a %.
And one other tid-bit R-12 and the HVAC R-22 The new refrigerants are not as good as the old refrigerants and attack the equipment and require special oils. The old refrigerants will last indefinitely. And I can't find it now, but if Freon is placed in water it will decompose naturally. I think I worded that correctly?
That's gist of it.
End one of many Rants. The more inside stuff I learn about the more greed and corruption I find that's slowly coming to the surface.
Paul
R12 is not MFG'd in US any more. The legally available stuff is recycled.
While 134a does not affect the ozone layer, it is still a global warming gas. There are no official plans to replace it, but that could change. Some companies in Europe (Hoffman LaRoche, for example)are no longer using 134a and are switching to ammonia. Ammonia is toxic and flammable, so I don't know that this is a great idea either.
134a is similar to r-12 as far as other "health" problems. The MSDS reads the same for r-12, r-22 and r-134a.
The oil is special because we didn;t have it before. But the oiul change interval for large units using 134a is changing to 5 years from 1 year. This is because synthetic oil last longer. (There are a lot of fans of synthetic on this site.) The refrigerant doesn't attack equipment any nore than the old refrigerant did. All the Flouro based refrigerants are solvents and attack many substances. r-134a did attack the materials used in r-12 (some rubbers and some gasket material). However, the materials used in 134a were available, and when used, last as long as the r-12 compatible stuff. In fact, on CFC equipment, if moisture was present in the system it would form hydrochloric acid. Without chlorine, 134a cannot form it. Both r12 and r134a however form hydroflouric acid when mixed with water.
The phase out of R-12 can be blamed on the Canadians if you ask me. The program was called the Montreal Protocol, wasn't it? Actually, the politicians to blame for this are the Europeans ones first for coming up with this and then ours for going along.
FWIW, the r134a equipment we sell today (Carrier Corp.) uses 40% to 50% less electric for the same capacity as the r-12 and r-22 (also r-500 and r-502) did before. It isn't all bad. And we retrofit the old equipment mostly by replacing a handful of o-rings and a couple of gaskets. The hard parts are perfectly fine with 134a.
The requirement for recycling/reclaiming was done as a broad sweep of all refrigerants. It is not because 134a is more harmful than r-12.
It is not legal for a private person to vent refrigerant. They are under the same rules, just less likely to be caught.
FWIW anyway....
My name is Richard. I was a Contouraholic.
NOW: '02 Mazda B3000 Dual Sport, Black
BEFORE: '99 Contour SE Sport
Duratec ATX Spruce Green
PIAA 510's, Foglight MOD, K&N Drop-in
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Dec 2000
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Originally posted by Contouraholic:
...... In fact, on CFC equipment, if moisture was present in the system it would form hydrochloric acid. Without chlorine, 134a cannot form it. Both r12 and r134a however form hydroflouric acid when mixed with water. .......
Really ? Hydrofluoric acid ? That is the nastiest ass stuff I have come across. It's an acid but it doesn't burn so you don't know you've been exposed till the bone in the exposed part of your body is eaten up (the acid attacks the calcium in bone) Nice.
Bless our servicemen & women overseas.
L.Cpl Ian Malone, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, R.I.P.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 635
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Appreciate your input Richard. I've got a couple questions but I got get back to the grass mowing in between storms.
May have to think about converting my property into a duck sanctuary?
Paul
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
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Originally posted by MarkO:
Really ? Hydrofluoric acid ? That is the nastiest ass stuff I have come across. It's an acid but it doesn't burn so you don't know you've been exposed till the bone in the exposed part of your body is eaten up (the acid attacks the calcium in bone) Nice.
Mark, yup thats the stuff it creates if water mixes with it! This is why its so important to have AC stuff taken to pro's; especially if you have a leak cause water can get in easy. They run a strong vacuum on the system before they fill it with refrigerant. I have only added R134 to my girlfriends car twice, and I hate doing it as I have had some instruction on how to, but not enough to feel confident.
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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