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Originally posted by Dionysus:
Originally posted by UPSTART-SVT:
Quote:
It would seem that blinders are in fashion this year.
Well, at least if Kerry gets voted in, you'll know that no matter what side of any issue you stand, Kerry will be right there to back you up, 100%. 
Thats really funny and really scary at the same time!?!?!
Vote Bush
That's really ignorant of you.
Re-Defeat Bush
Please, Kerry flip flops more than the fish at the end of that Faith No More video.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Originally posted by spgoode:
We both know that over the last year David Kay's opinion on Iraq's WMD's evolved from utter certainty that he would find them to his belief that there is no evidence.
BS. Quit swallowing everything you read on CNBC and CNN without thinking. Kay has said a number of times that any evidence that would have pointed to a "smoking gun" had most likely been destroyed and reconstructing any level of a "paper trail" was simply an impossible task due to the amount of records lost. That made the hunt that much more difficult. Hell, they had Iraqis coming back into Coalition-controlled areas to smash up equipment and burn documents. Hmm...
Another question for you, which I know you'll NOT answer again: Why would Iraqis risk their asses to come back in and destroy information and documents, if that information didn't hold some value to those searching for WMD? Many of these incidents took place in biotech labs in Baghdad...
Originally posted by spgoode:
You think that him saying seven months ago that we can't rule out their "potential use in BW production" is a good argument to support your position? The artlicle I quoted was three months after his testimony in fromt of the intelligence committee. Not long, but this was a very fluid issue.
Again, I'll trust sworn public testimony over a columnist putting bits and pieces together to culminate into something he's wanting to prove or lay out, be that a liberal or conservative outlet.
Originally posted by spgoode:
The articles you cited earlier, about the trailers being cleaned and what they contained, use information from administration press releases and I regard this info as highly dubious.
Other experts aside from US ones had access to some of the trailers and offered the same conclusions. I'm looking for these. I think they were British, IIRC. Finally, give the conspiracy crap a rest. The US has a lot of watchdogs looking over it's shoulders and some of the best experts on WMD discovery are non-US personnel. "Faking" evidence would be damn hard to do with the oversight that would ultimately be brought in to bear on the topic. I guarantee at a minimum UN inspectors would be brought in to bring their considerable expertise on this topic. Simply because UN inspectors were hobbled by bylaws that the UN politicians set in place DOESN'T mean they are lacking in talent and skill on WMD determination and detection. Problem was the idiots running the UN basically gouged their eyes out and chopped their hands off before they even got into Iraq...
What I consider dubious is the sheer amount of cover-up that's gone on in Iraq for close to a decade that you and a large number of the public are turning a blind eye to. There were tons of dual-purpose equipment still left in Iraq after UN inspectors left; they legally couldn't destroy a lot of the equipment because it had "pharmaceutical" or "agricultural" use. Inspectors went on RECORD stating that this was a grave concern to them and should be watched.
If ignorance is bliss, then there must be a boatload of happy people around.
JaTo
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Originally posted by spgoode:
We both know that over the last year David Kay's opinion on Iraq's WMD's evolved from utter certainty that he would find them to his belief that there is no evidence.
BS. Quit swallowing everything you read on CNBC and CNN without thinking. Kay has said a number of times that any evidence that would have pointed to a "smoking gun" had most likely been destroyed
If you read above you'll see that I stated that Kay stated there was no evidence. You are just restating what I restated.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Another question for you, which I know you'll NOT answer again: Why would Iraqis risk their asses to come back in and destroy information and documents, if that information didn't hold some value to those searching for WMD? Many of these incidents took place in biotech labs in Baghdad...
Again I am puzzled why you would think I would not respond when I have shot down every point you've made like Dick Cheney in a duck blind. And again you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your word as gold and ask that you supply a pertinent source for your information.
Originally posted by spgoode:
The articles you cited earlier, about the trailers being cleaned and what they contained, use information from administration press releases and I regard this info as highly dubious.
Other experts aside from US ones had access to some of the trailers and offered the same conclusions. I'm looking for these. I think they were British, IIRC.
Here's one! It's an abstract from a NY Times article stating that some experts disagree with the administration. You have to pay to see the entire article.
ABSTRACT - American and British intelligence analysts with direct access to evidence dispute claims that trailers found in Iraq in Apr and May were part of biological warfare program, interviews; say they were more likely intended for other purposes; charge evaluation process was damaged by rush to judgment; Central Intelligence Agency reaffirms stand (M)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFD3C5D0C748CDDAF0894DB404482
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But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Friedrich Nietzsche
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Originally posted by spgoode:
If you read above you'll see that I stated that Kay stated there was no evidence. You are just restating what I restated.
Wrong. He SPECIFICALLY stated that evidence pointing towards programs and development HAD BEEN DESTROYED.
That's a HUGE difference than having NO evidence whatsoever.
Reading comprehension is sorely needed here.
Originally posted by spgoode:
Again I am puzzled why you would think I would not respond when I have shot down every point you've made like Dick Cheney in a duck blind.
I so love a delusional mind, especially when I've still had ZERO (0) questions that I've posed answered in any form by you. It's all dodge and hustle on your part. Go back and simply answer the questions I've posed. That's all I'm asking here. Nothing sinister.
Originally posted by spgoode:
And again you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your word as gold and ask that you supply a pertinent source for your information.
It's obvious that you are satisfied with headline news and the mainstream media as your main source of information. I prefer...other sources, shall we say, in combination with what the media s**ts out their bowels most of the time and misrepresents and in addition to a number of foreign articles and industry pubs (Jane's being one of them).
Again, if you don't consider sworn public testimony from Kay himself on the matter as pertinent, I'm pretty much done with your lack of resoning here.
Originally posted by spgoode:
The articles you cited earlier, about the trailers being cleaned and what they contained, use information from administration press releases and I regard this info as highly dubious.
Other experts aside from US ones had access to some of the trailers and offered the same conclusions. I'm looking for these. I think they were British, IIRC.
Originally posted by spgoode:
Here's one! It's an abstract from a NY Times article stating that some experts disagree with the administration. You have to pay to see the entire article.
ABSTRACT - American and British intelligence analysts with direct access to evidence dispute claims that trailers found in Iraq in Apr and May were part of biological warfare program, interviews; say they were more likely intended for other purposes; charge evaluation process was damaged by rush to judgment; Central Intelligence Agency reaffirms stand (M)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFD3C5D0C748CDDAF0894DB404482
Again, just because a couple of lab rats couldn't figure out how to "cook" biotoxins without a multi-million dollar chemistry set doesn't mean a number of other veteran intel analysts (CIA and otherwise) didn't see that having fermentation units and the like in those trailers and the additions of a few cheap items like a washbasin and plastic sheeting could serve just fine.
Again, READ Kay's report. There's enough in there to chew over for a while. I'll see if I can get some pulls from Jane's this weekend and grab some other material as well. I'm still digging for the British piece on the trailers as well.
JaTo
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Originally posted by spgoode:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
The Jordanian Al-Zarkowi that either beheaded or lead the murderers of that unfortunate young man has for years run a terrorist TRAINING camp in North Iraq with full knowlege of Iraq intelligence.
This was alleged in Colin Powell's Feb '03 address to the United Nations. I don't remember any assertions about Al-Zarkowi running these camps though.
But if the camp Powell showed in the satellite photo was for terrorst training Sadam could have done nothing about it. As you say it was in the Northern portion of Iraq where the Kurds were being protected by our forces since the first Iraq war. Sadam did not control the area.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3070438/
Some highlights....
The battle against the so-called Ansar al-Islam is finished militarily,? said Talabani, the head of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of the two Kurdish groups that controls northern Iraq.
In the gulf state of Qatar, the wartime base of the U.S. Central Command, U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks said U.S. and Kurdish forces had destroyed a massive ?terrorist facility? operated by Ansar al-Islam.
Under heavy security, Talabani toured the villages of Tawela and Biyara, where an estimated 700 members of Ansar al-Islam forced the local population to adhere to their austere brand of Islam, much like the Taliban in Afghanistan.
While scores of militants were killed in the battle, Talabani acknowledged many were not found during a search of the site. Asked whether any leaders of Ansar al-Islam had been captured, he said, ?They escaped.?
?Perhaps there will remain some remnants of the terrorists in towns and villages,? Talabani said. ?We are looking for them.?
The United States has placed Ansar al-Islam on its list of terrorist organizations. U.S. officials allege the group maintains ties with Osama bin Laden?s al-Qaida terror network and receives some support from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
In a speech before the U.N. Security Council in February, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell presented what he said was evidence linking Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a chief bin Laden lieutenant, to an Ansar al-Islam camp in northern Iraq. Citing intelligence sources, Powell said a representative of Saddam had offered Ansar al-Islam a ?safe haven? in the region."
al-Zarqawi is named at the end.
We came for this camp and killed 65-300 terrorist but he and some other leaders got away....to later blow up hundreds in Madrid and BEHEADED Nick Berg.
This camp was in N. Iraq in the no-fly zone. Sadam knew of the camp...he PERMITTED IT. He would not eliminate it on his own. The Kurds were affraid to touch it. Sadam would have atacked us or the Kurds had we tried to take it out.
BY MY DEFINITION...THIS IS HARBORING TERRORISTS...
SADAM HARBORED TERRORISTS
SADAM HARBORED al-Zarqawi. Remember he got medical care IN BAGHDAD...
THIS CAMP EXISTED BEFORE 9/11
INTERVIEWS of captives in MADRID say that attck was DELAYED by 9/11...
WHAT do we not get here people....???
Last edited by Dan Nixon; 05/14/04 11:25 PM.
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I put my above post in a new thread...this is worth a new discussion. The once unknown al-Zarqawi who's terror camp we overran in Iraq in 2003 has hit the bigtime..
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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