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Originally posted by Sandman333:
I'm not asking for an eye for an eye situation. I'm not minimizing what we did in light of what they did. All I'm asking is if they are so outraged at what we did, and if that outrage is genuine, then why wasn't there any outrage in the Muslim community, worldwide, when Saddam was torturing and killing tens of thousands??????
Because it was being done to them by one of their own kind, perhaps?
Or because they were scared out of their minds that if they cried out, they'd be next?
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Originally posted by acrdklr:
extremist hate us for what we are because they (extremeist) can never achieve the great things the rest of the free world has already
Not exactly. You're claiming it's jealousy. In their view, the belief in another god is heresy, as Allah is the only true god. Let's also not forget the fact that we support Israel, which is basically begging for Islamic extremists to come and slaughter us wholesale.
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So what I am gathering from this latest bout of posting is that if an action is expected out of a person/country/religion/etc. then it is acceptable, or at the very least ignorable? So if someone has been convited or robbery, and released from prison, robs again, it is somehow not as big a deal because it is expected out of them? No, it is even worse.
All these people are doing both here in America and abroad is looking for a reason to hate America. They have been struggling to find things to hate about us for a while now so they used our lack of morals, hollywood, etc as their reasons in the past. They have killed our people then, and they continue to do now. The only difference is now their actions are somehow being rationalized by not only themselves, but horribly by some in the U.S.
While the U.S. is supposed to be the leader in morals in the world today, that does not mean that some will fall out of line. When this happens, yes, there should be sanctions placed on these people. There is no need for the witch hunt that some people are calling for. Maybe Mr. Rumsfield knew about some indecencies going on over there, but there is no way I believe at this point that he authorized or apporved of them.
Sandman, I applaud you and what you are doing for this country, and I do my part not only on here but in my real life to protect the great name you and all your compatriots fighting for a great cause over there. It sickens me to think that the actions of a dozen or so soldiers can cause so much outrage and outcry or justice, in the meantime cases of beheadings, burnings, etc. go without the same outcry.
I agree with what you have been saying here too; where was this huge ammount of disgust in what Saddam was doing to his people before we got over there? In addition to what you have stated on here, I recently had the pleasure of meeting someone who was on leave in the U.S from a base I believe he said was about 70 miles north of Baghdad. The actions that he described to me about the actions of the people that we were there to liberate and protcet were absolutely sickening.
The people that did these atrocities to America are afraid of what we stand for; freedom. These people that are still fighting us are the same that had a "good" life under Saddam, being able to rape and take anything they wanted to from the civilian population. But now that the comman man has freedom there, they don't have their power that they used to have over them.
The U.S. is not the bad guy in these situations. A few of our soldiers might have done something they shouldn't have, but that doesn't make our cause any less worth fighting for. There are people in Iraq that are happy to have freedom; to not have to worry about Saddam getting a bug up his as$ to kill or rape someone. Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people during his tyranical reign. Put things in perspective before you cry foul on what American soldiers did.
P.S. Oh and right now on Fox News there is an interview with an Iraqi citizen who got out of Iraq before Saddam telling America (I quote) "Wake up, stop worrying so much about the prisoner abuse scandals and put it into perspective..." "These prison abuse scandals have only given them some kind of rationalization to commit these murders..." Exactly what I and a few others have been saying for a while now... -Nick
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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Quote:
So what I am gathering from this latest bout of posting is that if an action is expected out of a person/country/religion/etc. then it is acceptable, or at the very least ignorable? So if someone has been convited or robbery, and released from prison, robs again, it is somehow not as big a deal because it is expected out of them? No, it is even worse.
No, that's not what we said. No one said a damn thing about what Saddam was doing as being "Acceptable" or even "Ignorable". It's just not going to have the same 'outcry' as what the soldiers did.
To somewhat use your analogy...
All of a sudden your neighborhood gets robbed. It makes the news, scares the familes in the neighborhod, etc.
But, after 6 months of constant robberies with no one being able to stop them, the news vans no longer show up, the families are no longer afraid, they do what they can to prevent them from happening, but are no longer surprised. It's just a way of life -- maybe even 'normal'.
If I walk through a bad neighborhood in a big city at night, I expect something to happen. Does that mean it's acceptable when it does? Hell no it doesn't. But it probably won't make the evening news either.
If I walk through a tiny downtown in Small-Town, America I don't expect to be murdered. But, if it does, you can be sure it will make their evening news for days, even weeks.
Expectations. Expectations form the way we feel about something and the way we feel when something happens -- whether it's a 'big deal' or a 'little deal'.
Human Rights violations were a norm under Saddam. "Acceptable"? Of course not. "Ignorable"? Not, not ignorable, but they were ignored. World-wide, but the US was more guilty of ignoring or turning a blind-eye to this than any other nation the first 15 years.
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Originally posted by zgendron:
I think the soliders involved are going to be hung out to dry. I truly believe that the MPs and soldiers involved were improperly trained and ill-prepared for handling prisoners and the situation at hand. This is a fundemental command failure. I hope that judgement does not stop with the court marshals, but the root of the problem is identified, and correctly.
With that said, these soldiers ABSOLUTELY knew that what they were doing is wrong. You don't need the Geneva Convention to tell you that.
Hiding behind their lack of training is BS. Plain and simple. It doesn't take the Geneva Conventions to tell someone how they should take care of prisoners. It's damn common sense that you don't make em get naked and lay in a huge pile. You don't lead them around with dog leashes.
Sandman's mailing address is to an MP Co, he's a reservist, just like the soldiers currently accused of abusing the prisoners. I imagine their military training was pretty similar. But, we don't see him or his unit on the news for abusing Iraqis. Why is that? Because the ones that did it are damn idiots.
I saw a lawyer representing one of the soldiers on the news the other day.. The lawyer was saying how she was ordered to abuse the prisoners and had no choice but to obey the order. More BS. If the order is unlawful she didn't have to obey it. The UMCJ explicitly states that a soldier must follow lawful orders, and therefore that a soldier not obey unlawful orders. The lawyer really didn't help his client by saying what he did on national television, all he did was point out that his client didn't perform her duty not to obey unlawful orders.
It doesn't take weeks of training to figure that out, it just takes a little common sense.
I think one reason we didn't hear a major outcry under Sadam was because people feared for their lives. If someone ran to CNN and complained that their loved one was missing / dead, that person would be missing / dead very soon thereafter.
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Quote:
There are people in Iraq that are happy to have freedom; to not have to worry about Saddam getting a bug up his as$ to kill or rape someone. Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people during his tyranical reign. Put things in perspective before you cry foul on what American soldiers did.
No, buddy, I think it's you who needs to put things into perspective...
You're saying that because someone did something worse what the soldiers did was okay; or at the very least, we should ignore it 'because someone else did something worse'.
So two wrongs do make a right now. Well. I wish I would've known that before.
Just because I sit here 'crying foul' over what the American soldiers did doesn't mean I didn't/don't do the exact same thing over what Hussein was doing.
Quote:
P.S. Oh and right now on Fox News there is an interview with an Iraqi citizen who got out of Iraq before Saddam telling America (I quote) "Wake up, stop worrying so much about the prisoner abuse scandals and put it into perspective..." "These prison abuse scandals have only given them some kind of rationalization to commit these murders..." Exactly what I and a few others have been saying for a while now... -Nick
Okay... Haven't seen anyone disagree with that here.
That doesn't degrade what the soldiers did one damn bit though.
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Originally posted by lsneo:
to all you little punks oposing our troops or defending the terrorists.
I implore you to post ONE quote that opposes our troops or defends the terrorists. ONE.
Bless our servicemen & women overseas.
L.Cpl Ian Malone, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, R.I.P.
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
I'm not asking for an eye for an eye situation. I'm not minimizing what we did in light of what they did. All I'm asking is if they are so outraged at what we did, and if that outrage is genuine, then why wasn't there any outrage in the Muslim community, worldwide, when Saddam was torturing and killing tens of thousands??????
we say we've got a better system, we have to prove it. its an instance of SEE LOOK! you guys suck too! Any critic will look for a reason to shell something new. American democracy is the something new.
-Matt
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Sir, you have my undying respect!!!
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Originally posted by zgendron:
Because we DEMAND that our Soldiers are heald to a HIGHER STANDARD.
If the Military took a proactive approach to this problem, we wouldn't even be discussing this now.
MORON....we're talking 12 soldiers out of 150,000!!!! Our fine military maintain the highest standards in the world. Don't impugn the many for the actions of a few! And, FYI, the military removed those bad seed from the system and started an investigation and charged the perpetrators in January. How's that for proactive? Face it, you just hate the military like all liberals..... 
'99 Sport TropicGreen,Duratec, SVT exhaust, Brembo rotors, Ceramic pads, K&N filters(oil & air), Alpine CDM7874, Polk DB570 speakers front and rear. Fog light mod. 50% Formula One tint.
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