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Originally posted by Sandman333:
the question is if they are so shocked and appalled at what we did, then where was that morality when they were doing far worse? No, they just want an excuse to kill us because they hate what we stand for: Freedom and Equality.
this is exactly what some of us have been getting at.....extremist hate us for what we are because they (extremeist) can never achieve the great things the rest of the free world has already. it really is a shame to considering the rich history the arabs and persians have to share with everyone else.
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Quote:
Including death by lowering head first into a vat of acid? Yeah, Saddam did that too.... Where was the outrage in the Muslim world then?
Again -- Expectations.
Saddam didn't invade a country with good intentions, preaching how he was going to provide them with freedom, basic human rights, and democracy; then immediately proceed to rape, sodomize, and murder prisoners.
Saddam was very clear about what he stood for. Right now the US is looking a little vague to many citizens of the world.
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I'm not asking for an eye for an eye situation. I'm not minimizing what we did in light of what they did. All I'm asking is if they are so outraged at what we did, and if that outrage is genuine, then why wasn't there any outrage in the Muslim community, worldwide, when Saddam was torturing and killing tens of thousands??????
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Originally posted by zgendron:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
Including death by lowering head first into a vat of acid? Yeah, Saddam did that too.... Where was the outrage in the Muslim world then?
There you go comparing what Saddamn did. You CANNOT compare. Its like Apples and Oranges. Is it fair? Maybe not. But none the less, you can't compare.
Saddam was a known abuser of Human Rights, and we're known ENFORCERS of Human Rights. That's one of the reasons we're there, to eliminate the abuse of Human Rights. However, if we ourselves abuse our power, does it make us any better? Whose going to police our actions?
No one but ourselves. Precisely the reason we must hold ourselves to a HIGHER MORAL STANDARD.
Except in Saddam's case it was Muslim's mistreating Muslims, no? If they have historically not held themselves to a standard why are they now holding the US to a standard? This is a key IMO and I think that was what Sandman was saying.
EDIT: and in fact that is the case. 
Last edited by bigMoneyRacing; 05/12/04 08:12 PM.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Quote:
Including death by lowering head first into a vat of acid? Yeah, Saddam did that too.... Where was the outrage in the Muslim world then?
Again -- Expectations.
Saddam didn't invade a country with good intentions, preaching how he was going to provide them with freedom, basic human rights, and democracy; then immediately proceed to rape, sodomize, and murder prisoners.
Saddam was very clear about what he stood for. Right now the US is looking a little vague to many citizens of the world.
you proceed from the premise that it was America's intention to rape and pillage, when nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry, but you will have to try harder than that with me.
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Because it wasn't "outrageous" that an evil dictator such as Saddam would do such things.
Of course the Muslim community was appalled at the things that Saddam did. But they expected that. When you expect something, it's not a big deal. No one was expecting this of the US military. It's almost a betrayal to them -- to display yourself as one thing and to do another. Betrayal and dishonesty does not go very far in the Muslim world.
Prior to 9/11, weren't you appaled when you heard the things that were occuring under Saddam's rule? I'm sure you were. But were you outraged? Probably not. You likely that it was a horrible thing, that the man needed to be ousted, and all sorts of other things, but it wasn't the same feeling you probably have now.
He also didn't have the gall to photograph and videotape every single tortuous thing he or his sons did to people. And if he did, it wasn't widely distributed.
Would the world be as upset if they heard the US was abusing prisoners? No. We heard that in Mid-January. But pictures. Pictures speak volumes. Pictures make things personal.
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Quote:
you proceed from the premise that it was America's intention to rape and pillage, when nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry, but you will have to try harder than that with me.
I said no such thing. Of course that's not true. I'm 100% behind the occupation of Iraq.
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Look, guys, I've been in the lion's den. I see what these people are like. Basically, they follow strength. It doesn't matter if the source of that strength is right or wrong. It doesn't matter if they fundamentally agree with it or not. They (sad to say) are like so many sheep.
Now we come in, make a small mistake (yes, in the context of things, this is a very small mistake in WAR), and are not falling all over ourselves apologizing for it. We should not have pulled out of Fallujah after we said we were going back in. We should find and kill al Sadr, just because he opposes us. He is growing stronger by the day because people see him as strong because he is standing up to us. To hell with their idea of sacred places (mosques)when they store weapons to be used against us there. We need to go in and kick butt and remind them who is boss. Every day we don't costs us American lives.
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yes, outraged at the women and children, etc that were killed with chemical weapons. Unfortunatly, we are weak as a country in our foreign policy until we are directly threatened or (as in 9/11) attacked. You want respect in the Arab world? Show that you are not afraid to flex your muscles, and you will get it.
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Quote:
yes, outraged at the women and children, etc that were killed with chemical weapons.
Ah, but that was one of the few of Saddam's horrible actions that there are a lot of pictures of. And that's why it was more upsetting.
Pictures make it personal.
That's why people are more outraged about this than they otherwise would be. That's why even the Berg killing is a bigger deal than the dozenss of other US civilian deaths in Iraq.
Like I said, the public has known about the abuse since January but there were no pictures so it wasn't news-worthy. It might have gotten a mention at the most. The same with 99% of the stuff that Saddam did. That's why the outrage wasn't there before.
Stories of horrible things are nothing more than stories. You can deny stories. You can think that stores are over-exaggerated or biased. You can't say that about photos.
I agree with you though -- We need to take a harsh stance on crime, any crime; but particularly crimes of the Berg execution nature. Not an abusive stance. But a harsh one. And not back down.
All of this, including the significance of the prisoner abuse, ties into the same ordeals -- you cannot back down from your word. If you say you're going to bring human rights to these people do it. You cannot talk out of both sides of your mouth.
In the US we live in a world where people are hypocrits on a daily basis. Everything from our peers to our politicians does it. That doesn't fly in other cultures. They see that sort of thing as betrayal; and we need the help of the Iraqi people, not giving them cause to join al-Sadr.
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