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I've gotta jump in on this again. I simply can not understand why a far larger deal is being made about us abusing their prisoners and of the many other things we've done to try and teach these people discepline and other basic human understandings, and yet America's own media is having trouble reporting all the severings, hangings, burnings, bombings, and other atrocities done to us. Perhaps America is on our own moreso than we realise.  Either way, I just find it almost too difficult to believe anything that runs through the news anymore. Things are so radically misinterpreted or overexaggerated that it's just not even funny anymore. 
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Originally posted by SAV-ZX2:
I've gotta jump in on this again. I simply can not understand why a far larger deal is being made about us abusing their prisoners and of the many other things we've done to try and teach these people discepline and other basic human understandings, and yet America's own media is having trouble reporting all the severings, hangings, burnings, bombings, and other atrocities done to us. Perhaps America is on our own moreso than we realise.
Because we DEMAND that our Soldiers are heald to a HIGHER STANDARD.
I'm sick of hearing all the, "But they did this to us!" Whining and Arguing. That is, and always will be, an invalid argument. We support HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ALL PEOPLE! That's what America is all about. That's why we MUST hold our soldiers to a HIGHER STANDARD!
We are not an "Eye for an Eye" community. However, many Muslim communities are. That young man was another victim, and I feel for him, but I feel no more for him than any other soldier that is KIA.
Its always easy to rally behind "your side", but I don't think enough people stop, take a step back, and think about the whole situation, not the one incident that the media bombards you with.
Blaming the Media is ABSOLUTE BS too. You don't like the idea of a Free Press, then I've got a list of places you can go to, including China. This is not the fault of the media. This was a complete failure by the US Military, and carried right up the chain of command.
If the Military took a proactive approach to this problem, we wouldn't even be discussing this now.
Sure, it would have looked bad, but the Military could have then said "We became aware of these problems and have taken steps to ensure that it won't happen again."
But no, despite the fact that Rumsfeld had a report on prisoner abuse for 2 months and didn't even read the report. It is VERY CLEAR that prisoner abuse would have continued if the Media didn't report the story.
- Zack
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Nevermind the lack of common sense used by the soldiers who took PICTURES of this.
They should have realized the pictures would somehow get out, and add more fuel to the hatred fire these people have against us.
I understand the WANT to do some damage to these people, and while it's very tempting, we should be doing everything we can to show good reason to be where we are, regardless of your feelings about it or the party line you stand on. "They did it first" may have worked on the playground, but, this is a different sandbox, where it's not only about the land, it's about the religion, it's about the culture, it's about EVERYTHING. And we do NOT need anymore fuel added to the fire of hatred towards the west.
Like I said before, the honor, respect, and pride that it takes to truly make a soldier are lacking in these people.
To play the devil's advocate, there is some form of outrage about torture being taught at one of the military bases in the US. I DO believe in a level of torture to extract information from a prisoner, I do NOT agree with wanton torture, similar to what happened here. To **US**, it's no big deal to pose these people in odd poses and humiliate them, as we don't have the sense of pride that a lot of eastern religions do. To **THEM** we've performed the worst crimes we could possibly perform. To them, death would have been more honorable. The ones that were foolish enough to betray their training and be this stupid deserve court martial and get tossed out on a dishonorable. I'm no "tree-hugging hippy liberal," either. I firmly believe in what we're doing over there, and completely back the US military, and have nothing but the utmost respect for them. Hell, I envy them for doing what most lack the courage to do.
Right now, as a citizen of this country, I know we already have image problems with the extreme muslim community. Our "representation" by our military is on very thin ice right now, and this really is an embarrassment on ALL of us.
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I think the funniest part of all this are the calls for Rumsfeld to resign... umm, why?? Was he behind the camera? He likely had NO idea that this crap was going on... what happened to the idea of punishing those responsible?
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Quote:
I think the funniest part of all this are the calls for Rumsfeld to resign... umm, why?? Was he behind the camera? He likely had NO idea that this crap was going on... what happened to the idea of punishing those responsible?
He admitted that he personally had known for more than 2 months and that the man in charge of operations in Iraq whose name I cannot recall right now had known since since the end of last year.
However, I agree that calling for his resignation is a bit overboard. But I don't know the details of what he had done to prevent the abuse from happening after he found out about it.
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I think the soliders involved are going to be hung out to dry. I truly believe that the MPs and soldiers involved were improperly trained and ill-prepared for handling prisoners and the situation at hand. This is a fundemental command failure. I hope that judgement does not stop with the court marshals, but the root of the problem is identified, and correctly.
With that said, these soldiers ABSOLUTELY knew that what they were doing is wrong. You don't need the Geneva Convention to tell you that.
- Zack
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Originally posted by zgendron:
Originally posted by SAV-ZX2:
I've gotta jump in on this again. I simply can not understand why a far larger deal is being made about us abusing their prisoners and of the many other things we've done to try and teach these people discepline and other basic human understandings, and yet America's own media is having trouble reporting all the severings, hangings, burnings, bombings, and other atrocities done to us. Perhaps America is on our own moreso than we realise.
Because we DEMAND that our Soldiers are heald to a HIGHER STANDARD.
I'm sick of hearing all the, "But they did this to us!" Whining and Arguing. That is, and always will be, an invalid argument. We support HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ALL PEOPLE! That's what America is all about. That's why we MUST hold our soldiers to a HIGHER STANDARD!
We are not an "Eye for an Eye" community. However, many Muslim communities are. That young man was another victim, and I feel for him, but I feel no more for him than any other soldier that is KIA.
Its always easy to rally behind "your side", but I don't think enough people stop, take a step back, and think about the whole situation, not the one incident that the media bombards you with.
Blaming the Media is ABSOLUTE BS too. You don't like the idea of a Free Press, then I've got a list of places you can go to, including China. This is not the fault of the media. This was a complete failure by the US Military, and carried right up the chain of command.
If the Military took a proactive approach to this problem, we wouldn't even be discussing this now.
Sure, it would have looked bad, but the Military could have then said "We became aware of these problems and have taken steps to ensure that it won't happen again."
But no, despite the fact that Rumsfeld had a report on prisoner abuse for 2 months and didn't even read the report. It is VERY CLEAR that prisoner abuse would have continued if the Media didn't report the story.
The question is not whether we were wrong or they were wrong, or even who was more wrong, but rather the question is if they are so shocked and appalled at what we did, then where was that morality when they were doing far worse? No, they just want an excuse to kill us because they hate what we stand for: Freedom and Equality.
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Originally posted by sigma:
He admitted that he personally had known for more than 2 months and that the man in charge of operations in Iraq whose name I cannot recall right now had known since since the end of last year.
And that's what they are publicly admitting. What aren't they telling us? Now that's a scary thought...
- Zack
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Including death by lowering head first into a vat of acid? Yeah, Saddam did that too.... Where was the outrage in the Muslim world then?
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Including death by lowering head first into a vat of acid? Yeah, Saddam did that too.... Where was the outrage in the Muslim world then?
There you go comparing what Saddamn did. You CANNOT compare. Its like Apples and Oranges. Is it fair? Maybe not. But none the less, you can't compare.
Saddam was a known abuser of Human Rights, and we're known ENFORCERS of Human Rights. That's one of the reasons we're there, to eliminate the abuse of Human Rights. However, if we ourselves abuse our power, does it make us any better? Whose going to police our actions?
No one but ourselves. Precisely the reason we must hold ourselves to a HIGHER MORAL STANDARD.
- Zack
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