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I don't know if I would want to watch it, but are there full versions of this sick act that can easily be accessed? I personally feel that the Iraqi abuse photos have gone way too far. Of course it's not right to rape someone and beat them to death, but I feel torturing high-profile Iraqis or ones that hold valuable information to a point is perfectly fine. If it means humiliating a prisoner in hopes of obtaining valuable info that could probably save American lives or whatever, go for it. And even though it wasn't completely right, people need to quit using it in their dirty political arguments. Bush and Rumsfeld have taken action against these people when others probably wouldn't have. They handled 9/11 very well in my opinion. I wish America would just think about themselves though. If we would try to turn our own country around and help our hungry and so on, we wouldn't piss off these crazy people. But that doesn't mean liberals need to whine about every inhumane thing that happens to people outside our country. They should use their energy to help people here.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Originally posted by DrGonzo:
...I do not know what you call marching orders, but when children are being taught, among other things, that Jews use the blood of Muslim babies in religious ceremonies, I must infer that this will breed hatred and thus terrorists...
Please show me where this is a commonly-held belief among the bulk of Wahabis. I would really like to see this.
I have seen documentation of this being taught in the madrassas, but I don't keep it bookmarked or anything.
I will try to get it for you.
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
How many Americans were beaten, tortured, burned alive, strung out on bridges, decapitated, the list goes on of the atrocities done to us. I ask, where is the outrage over that?!?!
I must agree with that comment. It is odd that the American media is more concerned with the prison situation than with acts committed by the enemy.
Terrorist aligned against the West (and Israel, which they are going to hate anyway and which they are going to lump in with us no matter what we do, remember that religion plays a huge role in this) are the enemy, right?
I found it odd that the same weekend that the story broke, and CBS broadcast the graphic photos, that I could not find ANY photos or video in the American media of the murder of a pregnant Jewish woman and her four children by Palastinian terrorists. A witness described that her car was shot up until she stopped, the gunmen approached, shot each of children in the head, then shot the pregnant woman IN THE BELLY, then shot her in the head.
I find that more repulsive than the prison abuse. I would like to see equal coverage. It would seem that the media does not want you to know the nature of the enemy. They are careful not to shock us with their behavior. I really do not know why not, or understand it. Even a partisan must be shocked at such an act of murder. I hope that we are not numb to the fact that this was not the first nor the last such act.
While we must be made aware of the scandal, I believe that this overriding concern about the prison abuse has more to do with an effort to beat Bush and place doubt on the war effort than to bring to light these abusive acts. The fact is, these acts were committed by a very small faction of troops. It should be dealt with, and harshly. We should condemn it, prosecute the offenders, fix the situation, and move on. But there is no logical reason for the way the media and some politicains are handling this, except for a partisan reason.
Do not interpret this as the comments of a Bush supporter. While I am likely to choose Bush over Kerry, I do not approve of the way we are handling the war. I cannot believe we gave control of Fallujah to a former Iraqi general, a high-ranking Bathist! I cannot believe that we have let our active forces, in a time of global strife, slip to such a point that Reservists and the Guard are handling a very high percentage of the duties in Iraq. I guess we can blame Rumsfeld and his smaller, quicker responding military for that one.
The sad fact is, the media won't show you the truth, the Democrats won't tell you the truth, and the Republicans are afraid to let out the truth.
I fear the situation we face is going to get much worse before it gets any better.
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Although they are not part of a country, we do have an idea of which countries they are coming from. Also international law applies to the world. The rules of war are suppose to be taken on by everybody during times of conflict. And when these are not upheld they are called 'War Crimes'. I dont know which side you are on Sigma, but whatever it may be, your brain functioning isnt quiet right and I say ya need to deflect into the ranks of all the Al- blah blah organizations and uphold their laws. Crimes are crimes. Period. Deal with the accused no matter what and dont defend them when they are caught on tape, hell they even video taped it themselves. The guilty are guilty and deserve swift justice on their ass. Even if it is our own people. If your gonna defend one group guilty of something then defend them all. Dont go prancing around defending heartless people. And justifying things by blaming soldiers, thats just stupid.
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
..... The worst part about this is how everyone has been making such a huge deal about posing some naked prisoners, while things like this go comparitively uncovered in the news. ....
It's all over the news. Top news item on Google news, CNN.com, BBC Online, etc.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
.... I know you PC police will come after me for saying this, but just think about how better off the world would if somehow the entire region was turned into a giant glow in the dark parking lot. Sure there is conflict in other parts of the world, but nothing compares to what these people do to themselves, but more importantly U.S. citizins and soldiers on a daily basis. ....
You know they are saying they same about us, don't you ??
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.... I'm tired of people putting the quality of life of people who were trying to kill us, ahead of an execution of someone who was rebuilding their country for them! .....
Illustrate your point with facts, please.
Originally posted by myfastse:
Another thing that gets me is that these [censored] are too chicken [censored] to catch a military guy and perform these acts. They catch a contractor try to rebuild their country and take his life. I hope that we [censored] their world up.
AFAIK, they HAVE a US soldier as a hostage. A soldier went missing in the same incident where Tom Hammill was taken hostage.
Originally posted by jshimer23:
now i didn't go reading all of the posts because this subject is a little hard to handle right now. but i knew Nick. He graduated high school in my brother's class and went to the same university as my brother also. he grew up in West Chester and a lot of people are hurting in our community. now more then ever i question why the hell we are over there. god bless those who are risking their lives for whatever the true reason we are over there for. i sure as hell wouldn't have such conviction. Nick was a good guy and will be sorely missed.
I'm sorry to hear that this has hit you personally. 
Originally posted by JaTo:
The day the US lumps all Muslims into one pile for execution, Al-Qaeda and every other Muslim extremist group in existance has won the war. .........
We are an extraordinarily powerful country, but don't think for a minute that we are an "immortal" country or that the rest of the world would line up and stand silent on such a display of ignorance. .....
Don't let the media suck you into believing that all Muslims have a knife waiting for a Western neck.
I think it's too late on the last point.
Originally posted by Onepurpose:
I never said that all Muslims were bomb toting or had a knife all the time, but its like picking out a needle in a hay stack with these guys. Unlike over here where its very apparent what type of social group you hold to, over there its almost impossible to pull out someone from a crowd and say they are an extremist .....
And to THEM, WE are all just fat, ignorant, decadent, immoral, materialistic SOB's ..... Get my point ?
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
...... How many Americans were beaten, tortured, burned alive, strung out on bridges, decapitated, the list goes on of the atrocities done to us. I ask, where is the outrage over that?!?! Sadly, there is almost none compared to the outrage over what mostly was no more than fraternity hazing of the prisoners! .....
There has been outrage over the deaths of Americans in Fallujah (read my previous thread on this) but this is not a game to see who is more outraged over what incident. And stop linking the death of Nick Berg to the prisoner issue. Stop doing the terrorists work for them. Regardless of what was said in the video, they are not linked. The prisoner issue is just an excuse. This poor bastard was going to be killed one way or the other.
Originally posted by DrGonzo:
....... I found it odd that the same weekend that the story broke, and CBS broadcast the graphic photos, that I could not find ANY photos or video in the American media of the murder of a pregnant Jewish woman and her four children by Palastinian terrorists. A witness described that her car was shot up until she stopped, the gunmen approached, shot each of children in the head, then shot the pregnant woman IN THE BELLY, then shot her in the head.
I find that more repulsive than the prison abuse. I would like to see equal coverage. ..........
Yes, that is more repulsive. Yes, I would like to see fair and balanced reporting of news items. You will never see it from the mainstream media though.
Bless our servicemen & women overseas.
L.Cpl Ian Malone, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, R.I.P.
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F@#K the media for putting those videos of the Iraqi extremists being tortured, on air and not thinking about the consequences. Sure it's not right that it's happening, but for God's sake, what did they think was going to happen once the world saw this stuff going down. Of course some retarded Al Queda militants would go those 10 steps futher and execute a civilian on TV. I hope the moron who leaked those videos realizes what a pandoras box he opened. Retard! And f#%k all those pompous a-holes on TV news/current-events talk-shows with their $80 hair cuts, $1000 suits and million dollrs homes in the Hills of CA, who drive their Benz's and Ferrari's to the studio to sit there and criticize a government that allows them to live the life they are living. Under the tyrannical rules of some of these Muslim extremist regimes that run many of the countrues in the Middle Esast, they'd all be riding emaciated donkeys to a mud hut to make barely enough money to f#$ken eat! And f@$K all of you that criticize our soldiers while they are trying to restore sanity to a terror-drenched country like Iraq, that lived under the rule of a ruthless, and saddistic dictator like Saddam for all these years. All this whining is a bunch of crap. You stupid f@$K's who sit here and complain all day about American troops and the US government, don't realise how f!$ken good you have it. Most of those poor brainwashed SOB's you see burning American flags would give their left nut to live in the US (if they really new how free they could be) where they can live life to the fullest, and yes, even follow the Muslim faith or any religion those choose without the fear that some covert government group is going to bust down their door at night, their wife raped and family murdered. You ignorant liberals make me sick.  I've been to umpteen countries across the world and have seen poverty and despair in the eyes of children that are doomed to a life they cannot escape. YOU have choices living in the US. You know that you will have your next meal. YOU know that you can sleep in your home at night and not worry about some nut exploding a car in front of your house because you're a Jew and he is a Muslim. Wake up to yourselves. If you don't like the US then f@$k off and go live somewhere else. I gaurantee you be begging to come back in no time - and if you don't then good riddance! 
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Nope, haven't heard of that actually, and im not saying it didn't happen.
Well Rumsfield himself admitted that it has happened. One of his key quotes: "There are other photos -- many other photos -- that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman." . He goes on to say that there's also videos that have been made. Video, reportedly (it's never and hopefully will not be released) of soldiers, both US and Iraqi Security Forces raping young boys, and raping and sodomizing female and male prisoners.
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That is far from the norm though, because as you said "you couldn't find the pictures taken after that one..."
Oh come on, "that one" was a figure of speech and you know it.
I have no idea how "normal" it is. There are two seperate cases and soldiers charged with the homicide of prisoners though, and 18 homicide investigations that haven't led to charges. So at least two murders that are known about. The tales of rapes are much more common.
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How many Americans were beaten, tortured, burned alive, strung out on bridges, decapitated, the list goes on of the atrocities done to us.
Too damn many, that's for sure.
But that is no justification at all for doing the same, or doing anything violent in return. You can't say "Well they did it to us, we're going to do it to them." We're supposed to be better than that.
Besides, if that's the logic you want to use, you're taking it out on the wrong people.
If you want to find the people that did those horrible things and return the favor, more power to ya. Dish out some of that 'eye-for-eye' punishment. I'll even videotape it for you myself and we can post it on al-Jazeera's website.
And, no, I'm not being sarcastic. I don't have a problem in the world with a little (or a lot of) cruel and unusual punishment -- as long as the right people are the ones on the receiving end of the stick.
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I ask, where is the outrage over that?!?!
The difference is Expectations.
Terrorists are expected to kidnap people and cut off their heads. US soldiers are not expected to be defiling, raping, and beating prisoners.
Expectations by the very fact that we expect them are not "news-worthy". They don't make good and exciting news. Unfortunately the media is a private enterprise (and for good reason) and needs to make money the same as every other company. News stories that we all expect to hear don't make people watch the news.
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Sadly, there is almost none compared to the outrage over what mostly was no more than fraternity hazing of the prisoners!
Again, stop comparing this to some "fraternity hazing". Comparing what the soldiers were doing to Iraqi prisoners to a hazing is like calling the beheading of this innocent man a "time-out".
Fact of the matter is it doesn't matter a damn what we here think of the incidents. I don't see it small stuff like the posing and what not as a huge issue either. But the Iraqi people do. And if the Iraqi people stop seeing us as Saviors and start seeing us as Oppressors, we're going to be in it pretty deep.
Two things to remember that not only hold true in this case, but in life in general:
1> People, and nations, are judged not by their preachings, but by their actions.
2> People forget the good things much more readily than the bad things.
A whole lot of building schools, running utility lines, providing security to establish a democratic system, etc is all flushed down the toilet when "the good guys" get caught abusing prisoners.
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And frankly, I don't feel in the least bit bad that it happened to him either, he would have done it (maybe not the rape part) to us if he had the chance, and probably has too. Seeing that he was a prisoner of war, he has at least shot at U.S. soldiers.
What kind of logic is that? If he's a prisoner of war he must have shot at US soldiers? The fact that he's a prisoner and not a dead man means he's probably one of the tens of thousands of soldiers (the vast majority) that never fired a shot and were waving their white flags as soon as the US rolled across the border.
Don't you remember why it was so easy for us to get to Baghdad in the first place? Hardly anyone did fire a shot, and those that did, like the oft-mentioned Republican Guard troops largely fought to the death.
Those soldiers who layed down their rifles, who risked the absolutely horrible incomprehensible things dished out by Hussein's sons that happened to soldiers that defied orders under Hussein, were the heroes that saved thousands of US soldiers lives.
And of course some shot back. They did what any good soldier would do if his nation was being invaded. I would expect the same of any US soldier that took an oath to protect the people of the United States from any enemy, no matter what good intentions they had.
Again, just to re-iterate my point, and maybe explain it a little better and more precisely...
I don't have any problem with doing the cruelist most sadistic, defiling, hell-damning things in the world to the people that did this to Berg, would do it to any civilian contractors, or would threaten the way of life of any citizen of any nation of the world.
I do have a very serious problem with the blanket of hatred that's draped over Iraqis or even Muslims as a whole -- i.e. the "Glass Parking Lot" approach. And/Or the many people using the "He started it" or "They did it so we'll do it too" logic. We're supposed to be better than that here.
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to all you little punks oposing our troops or defending the terrorists.
Tell this to my marine friend who got shot in the stomach when he was in the bagdah (SP) airport, or my other friend who just got back from iraq after being a medic and saving lives of our soldiers and of the enemies. Tell that to sandman or our other ceg friends that are in iraq. Tell that to them, aparently you dont know whats really going on over there, you are just being brain washed by the stupid media that is only out for money, they dont give a flying [censored] about anyone, they only care about looking good, making money, and trying to make bush look bad. This war is not a war based on humanity, this war is a war based on political parties and money. Screw the french, screw the germans, russians and all of those other pussied countries. I am part Spanish and im going to say it, SCREW SPAIN for being pussies. And most of all [censored] the media, they are controling most of peoples minds only to make money and to push their political beliefs.
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
No, he wasn't a soldier, just like the 3000+ that were killed in the WTC, Pentagon, and the flight over PA weren't. These people are chicken$hits, plain and simple. I really think that we just should just give Iraq a little more time, then if those barbarians want to let their country fall back into the stone age like it was under saddam, so be it; the more they kill off themselves the better this world will be.
The worst part about this is how everyone has been making such a huge deal about posing some naked prisoners, while things like this go comparitively uncovered in the news. I have been watching CNN now for about an hour(shudders), and have seen 4 mentions of the great inquisition, and only one about this story. The fact that a man, who was helping to rebuild the nation that those cretans will be living in after we leave, was executed on video makes me sick, and hate those people in the mid-east even more.
I know you PC police will come after me for saying this, but just think about how better off the world would if somehow the entire region was turned into a giant glow in the dark parking lot. Sure there is conflict in other parts of the world, but nothing compares to what these people do to themselves, but more importantly U.S. citizins and soldiers on a daily basis.
I'm tired of people putting the quality of life of people who were trying to kill us, ahead of an execution of someone who was rebuilding their country for them! Hell, some of the hazing that goes on in fraternities is worse than what they did to the prisoners! Just imagine how worse off these prisoners would be, if we ran our prisons like those anywhere else in the world; if it was Iraq, they would have been tortured and killed by now.
If it wasnt for us, the Iraqi's would have still been slaughterd, raped, tourtured (thats real tourture) by the tens of thousands!
Indeed. I am here at the prison now. Speaking with the interpreters who are local to this area, they tell us that Saddam would visit every so often for "sport". When he walked around, he carried a 9mm with him. If a prisoner was out of his cell or simply looked at Saddam in a manner he didn't like, Saddam would shoot him. Where was the outcry from the international community and Muslims then???????
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