Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Common Interests Who Are You Voting For in November?

Originally posted by sigma:

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1) Every item you purchase, from a load of bread to a car, was able to be produced at the price it was because of federal subsidies in some form.

2) Social programs, yes, are expensive and you might not ever need them. But, chances are at some point in your life your either did or will need them in some capacity. Whether it's WIC when you're a baby, federal unemployment as an adult, or Medicare when you retire.

3) Without many of those social programs are society would be a cesspool. There wouldn't be healthy workers to flip your cheap burgers; or provide tens of millions of workers the health insurance, food, and shelter they need to be the backbone of our industrial society (whether currently or what they will be in the future), millions would be unemployed without federal subsidies to protect their industries, millions of farmers would go bankrupt in a bad year causing food shortages in the future, so on and so forth.

4 I guarantee that no one here pays as much taxes off their paycheck as I do. Thanks to the great thing (no being sarcastic, it really is great, but it is expensive) that is Railroad Retirement, 13% of my check goes straight to them on top of my federal taxes.

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1) This is not true. Some items, perhaps. But it is clear that each and every item is TAXED.

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2) I might, but I doubt it. I have worked hard for my retirement planning (including heath coverage as I'm skeptical that Social Security & Medicare will be viable), I am able to do several jobs so it is unlikely I will be unemployed very long. I pay for disability insurance, used the GI bill for college and professional school, neither myself nor children used WIC support.

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3) Around here..a BUNCH of those "cheap burger" flipping jobs go unfilled because people can make more with government benefits...
Yes certain gov programs are important...protecting farmers because they have "unique" importance and challenges, heath care for kids, loans (not gifts) to go to college or start a buisness. But I see it as a narrow view to think that our society would not function without MANY of the wasteful and typically inefficient or ineffective programs we now have.

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4) Are you counting your railroad retirement as a tax?????

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Originally posted by Airforce:

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I can't see having a new president come into this war on terror that the world encountered and do as good as a job that Bush has done.

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Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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I guess bMR is volunteering to pay up the difference in lost revenue to the US treasury just so families with wealth can pass 100% of their holdings along.

The Kerry/Heinz and Kennedy families are not supporting an end to the estate tax, but you're threatened by that tax? You must have more to lose by paying it than they do.

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Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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JaTo, I quoted George Will to show that you're on the neocon fringe AND that you shoot off your keyboard about topics on which you are half as aware as you pretend to be. But you getting caught making a fool of yourself was not enough to teach you to back off.

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Teach? You give yourself FAR too much credit, especially when I've thrown up logical and valid examples of what I believe and why I believe it to be true, when the best you've managed is a half-assed, sarcastic and caustic scortching of much filler and little substance...

I'll ask you again to put your money where your mouth is and proveit, instead of making baseless accusations or conjuring up some sort of fantasized, smug little parable that you are hanging onto tooth and nail.

Pull the thread up and show the world where I was being "two-faced" or spouting "versions" of a story. I've asked you to do this twice...

Put up or shut up. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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You'd once commented you'd picked up habits of heated debate with philosophy and divinity students and others, and you imply or out-and-out represent you're well-read on domestic policies, international relations, and now the tax code. There seems no limit to your knowledge about which you are self-compelled to preach on this site, nor by implication your opinion of yourself.

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God, do I really have to give you my resume and interests list?

I read up on what interests me and what affects me, and yes, I am moderately well-read (especially in regard to History) and educated. I have two very close friends that are PhDs in Philosophy whom I stay in contact with. My best friend is an intelligence analyst with the military, my wife's father held a diplomatic station in Spain for 7 years and due to Uncle Sam digging into my pockets deeper and deeper every year, yes I do pay attention to pieces of the tax code that affect me or will soon do so. I feel lucky to have such fascinating contacts, friends and family, to be bluntly honest.

In short, I talk to people, I listen, I read and I craft my opinions off of the information I have at my disposal and my experiences that I've had so far, which is more than I can say about someone who simply is content to throw around a couple of names, sarcasticly and vaguely rants on the keyboard for a couple of paragrahs on a given topic and then waits to spew out more vitrolic when their profound lack of reasoning is called on the carpet.

You see the world VERY differently than I do; that's for certain.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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You cry about your family farms being threatened by your family's ONLY being able to pass on the FIRST $1.5 million free of federal estate taxes while not disclosing how many OTHER $$millions they hold and are at risk to have taxed or lose.

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What I W-2 currently and what legacy will be left behind for me to manage is NONE of your business. Period. YOU cry like the school bully who can't stand the though of anyone having it BETTER than you and has to "even" the situation. I'll not go into the sentimental attachment I have for much of the hunting and fishing grounds in our posession (some of which we donate as camping grounds for local Boy Scout outings and allow OU geologists on for fossil collecting and classwork), OR some of the areas we've set aside for wildlife conservation, or the cattle that we slaughter and send to the Church to donate to needy families. Again, let me reiterate that long history with the government shows that my family can take care of their holdings and use them MUCH more responsibly than the US government can, Mr. Communist Manifesto.

By the way, what charitable work do you do for your community, since we are getting personal?

Ultimately, there are those that make a thousand times more than I or ever will, and there are those that will has passed down to them estates that make some look like a $2.99 styrofoam Naitivity setting at Wal-Mart. I don't begrude them of this and I certainly don't want to leech off of them just to prevent them from making, doing and providing more for this nation. Success in a capitalistic society is IMPOSSIBLE to keep all to yourself; it takes investment and development in many areas to further growth and countless millions in this country benefit from this economic philosophy.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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You make your political beliefs everybody's business by your political preaching and judge others with smug put downs.

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I was going to make some smarmy remark about the pot calling the kettle black, but...

I have a number of flaws and one of the most prevalent is that I don't suffer fools very easily. I see BS and I call BS. As far as yaking about politics, it's a wonderful window into people's beliefs and ideology, whether I agree with them or not. Finally, I most certainly wouldn't call my opinion on matters any sort of "judgement", as you put it.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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But then when your objectivity and financial bias is questioned, it's none of anyone's business. That pretty well establishes your bias and lack of objectivity for us.

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Keeping the government's wasteful hands out of long-standing assets that have already been taxed to Hell and back when my betters pass on establishes that I'm sick and tired of liberal parasites enacting and supporting legislation that's nothing more than "class envy" or "success punishment" and is designed to keep a lasting legacy away from those that work hard and succeed in life SHOULD be everyone's concern, as this is what the majority of Americans work, yearn and strive for.

Except for those that are merely content on milking the Federal cow and sliding by in life for whatever reason, of course.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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Your professed philosophy SEEMS to be one in favor of a meritocracy: Personal responsibility, hard work, self-reliance. We greatly agree there.

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Excellent. I'm glad we agree on something here, though I'm not blind to the fact that some level of government assistance is mandatory for a number of US citizens. AGAIN, don't mistake my disdain for estate taxes and government waste to expand across ALL taxes and ALL government programs (trying to counteract your stereotyping and "broad brush" approach that I'm sure was coming up in your next post). I'm not such a fool to know that it takes a fair amount of dollars to provide basic services and comforts for US citizens...

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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But now we see that philosophy you'd sell us requires that kids and grandkids of your parents and grandparents get a headstart of tax-free accumulated $$MILLIONS. Gee, that's fair to those of us that weren't born to your family.

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It's not a philosophy, it's REALITY! Welcome to the REAL world; where life isn't always fair and where some people have it made on easy street from day 1, others have to bust their asses beyond belief to simply make a living. Not everybody is cut out to be a 7-figure salary CEO, the same as not everybody is cut out to be a plumber or welder.

With the way you are leaning, we might as well start telling immigrants to head back to the countries they've fled, as if they succeed in life, over half their blood, sweat and tears in terms of holdings and money will get yanked away from them...

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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(Was there a silver spoon in your mouth at birth, disguised as 400 acres of windblown sod and a huge John Deere contraption that now includes air conditioning and a CD player? Is your family like those which want the gub'ment to send a check when the crops fail, but EVERY OTHER gub'ment program is wasteful?)

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No, I grew up during the oil bust in OK, where much of my immediate and extended family lost the shirts off their backs and then worked hard to get back to where they are today, for the most part. I lived a decidedly lower middle-class life until certain business ventures took off and stock options exploded very late in my college years. To this day, the only thing that money provided me was an overseas education, as my own work and scholarships paid my way through school.

How's that for a silver spoon?

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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So back on point, you're in like the top 4% telling the other 96% that what's best for you is best for them, and they are not allowed to disagree without having your haughty quotes cast at them. And you can't back off when I mock you as being a bad posterboy for the Bush cause. You're making my case for me.

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I have no issues with disagreement, but come to the table with more than just a couple of sound-bytes and some ill-concieved, half-assed argument, otherwise it tends to get eaten up if not by me, by someone else.

Furthermore, I FIRMLY believe in legislation that incites growth, innovation, investment and an entrepeneurial spirit, rather than punishing those that strive and succeed at the American dream. You can blame me for that and throw me on that cross any damn day of the year, bud!

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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How about you spend less time rationalizing your stand and preaching at us (you're on this board doing that ONLY a TINY bit) and more time learning the estate and gift tax code and all those things that the Kerrys and Kennedys know that your family of poor ol' dirt farmers are too busy pushing beeves to learn for themselves while you'd been off debating with the philosophers and divinityers.

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I will gladly do so, if you promise to get off your ass and work to better you and your children's position in life instead of relying on US legislation to cover for your financial inadequacies or laziness and MANDATE that for everyone else. Again, I despise legislation and political leechery that is designed to pull citizens back from success that they've worked hard for...

Actually, I take that back. We've got attournies and accountants working on things to ENSURE things work out the way we want them, so apart from occasionally heading back to the homestead to cut cattle, fix fence and repair corrals every now and then, I'll enjoy discussing Transcendentalism and H.D. Thoreau this weekend.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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That would be doing your family a favor, since Bush is unlikely to win and end that estate tax for you. (Could your preaching be more important to you than your family's holdings?) (OMG, if we all dropped the political preaching, this would be a CAR site again!! I'm up for that. JVT, what did you expect would happen when you posted your poll? Do you dislike this being a car site?)

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See above. An ounce of planning can carry one far...

Furthermore, I think you are missing the point of the Common Intersts section, as I certainly don't post my ramblings on politics in the Wheel and Tire section.

Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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Since I struck a nerve JaTo, that's supposed to be a hint for you. You might pick the log out of your own eye. Churchill did not say that one, so maybe you're unfamiliar with it.

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I would refer you to a certain quote by uttered by the actor Bruce Cambell playing the part of Ash, but I won't be that crass.

Originally posted by JaTo:

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Originally posted by PDXSVT:

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JaTo, I quoted George Will to show that you're on the neocon fringe AND that you shoot off your keyboard about topics on which you are half as aware as you pretend to be. But you getting caught making a fool of yourself was not enough to teach you to back off.

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Teach? You give yourself FAR too much credit, especially when I've thrown up logical and valid examples of what I believe and why I believe it to be true, when the best you've managed is a half-assed, sarcastic and caustic scortching of much filler and little substance...
etc. etc. etc. etc....its still going...etc.

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