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Joined: Sep 2000
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"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by path914:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
nick, a single turbo is already crammed enough underneath the hood of our car. Fitting a seperate collector pipe, turbo, wastegate, and downpipe is just down right ludicrous. I dont even think there would be enough room for a intercooler after all that. theres not enough room, not to mention, as rara said, there are no horsepower benefits from a twin turbo setup vs a single turbo kit on the duratec.
Only case, Noble M12... 
And Duttweiler(sp?) IIRC
No the Duttweiler Focus w/ the Duratec was a single turbo.
You guys just don't get it; Twin turbo setups are only beneficial when the package permits a much better header design (the contour package doesn't by any stretch) and when an appropriately sized single turbo is not available.
People talk about the spool time, but that is mostly a moot point; spool time can be tailored with the turbine housing design. The big point that people mention is the moment of inertia of one larger turbo rotating assembly vs. that of a smaller one (for twins) but what people fail to remember, is that the smaller turbo for twins, is that only half the exhaust energy is going through each turbo.
As far as one making more power vs. the other; it is more dependant on factors such as header design and compressor efficiency than whether there is one or two turbos. Anyone that claims two turbos inherently makes more power independantly of the factors I mentioned, is an idiot.
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Joined: May 2002
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Rara:
Anyone that claims two turbos inherently makes more power independantly of the factors I mentioned, is an idiot.
I love you Rara. 
~~~~~~Mike~~~~~~
Black 2006 VW Rabbit
Silver 2000 Contour SVT - SOLD
~~~~ The Car~~~~~
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,367
Hard-core CEG\'er
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I'll tell you how to do it... Cossie 4-Cylinder conversion.  I'm gonna do it even if it sucks!
Sal Khan
00 SVT - Not pretty
00 Aprilia RSV Mille - Also Loved.
http://www.thelunchjournals.com
"I just want someone I can stand once her mouth is free of obstruction."
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 49
New CEG\'er
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New CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Rara:
No, no one ever has, and in the case of the contour, a twin setup is no better than a single turbo.
That's not necessarily true. People have a misconception of that,though twins do tend to spool faster, sometimes they will and sometimes they dont. But still a single that pushes as much air as a twin setup will take longer to spool. In most cases with a V configuration engine per usual is twin turbo's. Whether it be a V6, V8 or V12 or the mighty inline 6. the inlines and most engines that are twin turbo are usually race engines that have about 2000+RPM capability more than the CDW-27. I see many single turbo setups with a V configuration though, and i beleive mainly that it is a cost situation. I can see a possible Twin setup for the tour, but it would be expensive and tricky. not to mention a whole lot of R&D would have to be used up to develop the system. Besides, the idea behind twin turbo is faster spool up and higher horsepowers, the first turbo in some setups, has a smaller turbo for low speed, low RPM power amplification. and at higher speeds, the larger of the two turbos kicking in with the exhaust at high rpm, creating killer horsepower. Beside that, I personally dont think that the kid should be discouraged from trying something if he wants to and has the money. Use a small stage turbo for the low rpm acceleration, and then find yourself a bigger profile turbo that can flow a large amount of air and hold on to higher rev's without overspinning the hot side. I guess innovation is the biggest factor to twin turbo on a car like this...without innovation you guys wouldnt have the impressive streetflight kit, so dont discourage him....help him....Think about the space under the front clip, find some space and figure out how to mount them and run the necessary piping to an intercooler, to the TB, and the exhaust really shouldnt be too hard to figure out. and yes feedback on this incouraged as i know how you guys like to knock any radical idea. But turbo's are compressors of a fluid (air is a fluid). I deal with liquid (fluid) compressors mainly on a daily basis, but essentially its no different from a turbo or supercharger. something at a specific pressure goes in and is compressed even further and pressure is added, and then discharged to the system(engine) in this case. Anyways to end this post, the twin setup may or may not be better than a single turbo setup. you won't know until you try.( dont even bring up the M12, i know its twin'd and it uses t25's).
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Joined: Sep 2000
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"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Quote:
That's not necessarily true. People have a misconception of that,though twins do tend to spool faster, sometimes they will and sometimes they dont.
Like I said, in the case of the contour, even if you could fit a twin setup, it wouldn't be any better. I'm sure I'll get into why in a bit.
Quote:
But still a single that pushes as much air as a twin setup will take longer to spool.
Not necessarily, it all depends on the energy available to drive either setup by the time the exhaust reaches the turbo. This means it is more dependant on header and turbine housing design than anyhting else.
Quote:
In most cases with a V configuration engine per usual is twin turbo's. Whether it be a V6, V8 or V12 or the mighty inline 6.
There is a reason most V-configuration engines use a twin setup; packaging efficiency. The contour just plain doesn't have the package for a second turbo in a position anywhere close enough to make it worthwhile.
Quote:
the inlines and most engines that are twin turbo are usually race engines that have about 2000+RPM capability more than the CDW-27.
WTF does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
Quote:
I see many single turbo setups with a V configuration though, and i beleive mainly that it is a cost situation.
I don't know anyone that has done a turbo setup on a V8 as a single for cost reasons. Usually it is done for simplicity, ease of installation, race class legality, etc. Cost is usually not on the top of the list. But I suppose cost could be a valid argument.
Quote:
I can see a possible Twin setup for the tour, but it would be expensive and tricky. not to mention a whole lot of R&D would have to be used up to develop the system.
I can too, only its not as good as a proper single setup for the car; I personally don't see the benefit of wasting a lot of time and money for a sub-par final result. The concessions that would have to be made to even fit a second turbo to a contour, let alone make it function reasonably well.
Quote:
Besides, the idea behind twin turbo is faster spool up and higher horsepowers, the first turbo in some setups, has a smaller turbo for low speed, low RPM power amplification. and at higher speeds, the larger of the two turbos kicking in with the exhaust at high rpm, creating killer horsepower.
The only sequential turbo setups I'm aware of are a small number of OEM systems, that are summarily tossed in the garbage by anyone trying to improve said vehicles in the aftermarket arena. And again, I will state that faster spool-up and higher horsepower is not an inherent trait of twins over a single, but is more dependant on the system sizing of either setup, and the over all design of parts like headers and turbine housings etc. You sound like you are just ape-ing comments out of magazines that you don't fully understand . . .
Quote:
Beside that, I personally dont think that the kid should be discouraged from trying something if he wants to and has the money.
I'll bet you $500 cash that the kid doesn't have the money to develop a proper turbo kit. I'm not about discouraging, I'm about keeping these kids from focusing on realistic goals. A twin isn't going to gain anything over a single on a contour performance-wise, the only gain would be in pimp factor.
Quote:
Use a small stage turbo for the low rpm acceleration, and then find yourself a bigger profile turbo that can flow a large amount of air and hold on to higher rev's without overspinning the hot side.
Do you have any concept of how complex a proper sequential setup is???? And you want some poor kid to waste all his time and money developing on, which won't improve the performance over a far simpler setup???? Ya got me on that one, because I just don't know how to respond to that thinking.
Quote:
I guess innovation is the biggest factor to twin turbo on a car like this...without innovation you guys wouldnt have the impressive streetflight kit, so dont discourage him....help him....
Innovation as in magically finding a place on the car to put the second turbo? Then yeah, its going to take innovation. As far as Street Flight and innovation, well, with all due respect to Street Flight, there wasn't a bit of innovation involved, they took tried and true engineering disciplines for developing a high quality turbo kit, along with quality materials and components and put together a heck of a standard turbo kit. Nothing magic about it.
Quote:
Think about the space under the front clip, find some space and figure out how to mount them and run the necessary piping to an intercooler, to the TB, and the exhaust really shouldnt be too hard to figure out. and yes feedback on this incouraged as i know how you guys like to knock any radical idea.
If you put a turbo that far from the engine, it isn't going to be efficient, hence making it less desirable than the single kit available, or even a "junkyard" type single turbo setup.
Putting twin turbos on a car just for the sake of saying its "twin" turbocharged over being able to just say turbocharged, is plain silly. We don't knock radical ideas, we knock silly ideas.
Quote:
I deal with liquid (fluid) compressors mainly on a daily basis, but essentially its no different from a turbo or supercharger. something at a specific pressure goes in and is compressed even further and pressure is added, and then discharged to the system(engine) in this case.
Oooh, air is a fluid??? I must have missed that one, I had no idea . . . (where is my sarcasm smilie???) The problem here is, at the pressures we are discussing, air is highly compressible, where liquids don't tend to be. So that would be an apples to muffins comparison.
Quote:
Anyways to end this post, the twin setup may or may not be better than a single turbo setup. you won't know until you try.( dont even bring up the M12, i know its twin'd and it uses t25's).
I know it won't be better because there is no place to put the second turbo close enough to the rear bank to make a decent exhaust manifold for it. Consequently, I don't have to try.
The Noble is a different story entirely, because they have the package space to build some proper exhaust manifolds for a twin setup on a duratech.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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God not again. People need to check the info. The quarterly bi-turbo arguments are really pointless.
Last edited by SmoothSVT; 03/16/04 12:15 AM.
90' Bright Orange Mustang
65k - 13.306@105.1 
Looking for another CSVT
~Blas~
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06 GMC Sierra 2500HD Dmax/ally
06 Pontiac G6 GT
05 CRF250R
FOR SALE 06 KX65 with riding gear $2700 obo
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Originally posted by SmoothSVT:
God not again. People need to check the info. The quarterly bi-turbo arguments are really pointless.
EDIT: bi-weekly
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Joined: Dec 2002
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I guess I don't see why all the fuss about twin turbos when a single turbo 3L capable of far more power than the drivetrain can even put to the ground effectively. Think about it - Warmonger's 3L turbo is putting out close to 400/400 on 9PSI, with an internally stock 3L with stock cams and pump gas. He could probably get close to 500/500 with enough work. Can anyone imagine trying to put that kind of power down through the Contour's drivetrain?? Since the power options available for our cars now offer more power than most people will know how to handle, shouldn't people be focusing on how to strengthen the rest of the car to handle it? *cough* -AWD- *cough* 
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I say we let these people try it. Then some number of years and 7000+ dollars later we can all laugh at them and trout slap them.
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