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Originally posted by mbSVT:
Originally posted by bishop375:
Originally posted by 96_Concept_GL:
Why not allow polygamy?
It's allowed in Utah.
Are you sure about that?? I didn't think it was.
The state does not permit polygamy. The LDS church also is against it (but wasnt a long, long time ago). The reformed LDS church (IIRC), which branched off before any of us were around still practices it.
Originally posted by Nate S:
Originally posted by MercuryMystik99:
It has nothing to do with morals, religion, or personal...
[snipped the long reply]
...even going to get into the war in Iraq.
i think thats a valid point, people could try to take advantage of it, etc.
but you have to admit that it DOES have to do with morals, religion, etc, for some people....
And people cant take advantage of the system right now? There are plenty of marriages that are about insurance, taxes, etc and no children will ever be brought into them.
Good reply Scott!
Originally posted by ScottR:
Here's my thinking on another (related) topic: adoption by homosexuals.
I do not doubt that there are many homosexual couples that could provide far superior environments for children than they currently have. But the real question is whether there is solid evidence to show this makes sense as a general idea.
You run into problems with this again. Wording has to be carefully written to protect the children. Utah's law is one such example. They do not permit an unmarried couple (or a single person) to adopt a child. Take my friend, he has been living with his wife (for lack of a better word) for as long as I have known him, over five years. Technically he is married to her under common law because they have lived together for so long. He has never walked down the asile with her for medical reasons. Right now she has excellent insurance from the state for some condition she has (Im not going to go into details in this thread). If he marries her, his insurance will have to take over and it will ruin them because of the cost of what she needs. Now throw the daughter that they have raised into that. The daughter is the 'wife's' biological child. She knows who her real father is, but he doesnt have custody of her. So, if something happened to the wife, since she and my friend were not married he cannot take custody of the girl whos life he has been a part of for countless years. She would go to her grandparents on her mothers side, since they are the only married couple. So instead of taking it on a case by case basis, the blanket approach to fix the problem would ruin this girls life.
I also fall into this with my brother's newborn baby. Since I am not married, if something happened to my brother and his wife, I could not take custody of my own nephew.
Originally posted by ScottR:
As for gay parents, there is (to my knowledge) no body of research that tells us how adopted children turn out. This is because there are not that many children of gay parents. In the future, we may have more understanding of this. If research shows positive effects, then I say promote the policy nation-wide. But for the sake of children, let's take a ??wait and see? attitude.
My ex had turned out fine for being raised by lesbians. I will continue this reply in the next section.
Originally posted by ScottR:
Nonetheless, as a matter of common sense, I expect there are definite drawbacks to gay adoption. And these drawbacks have to do with gender socialization. Parents are a major source of socialization for children. Little girls (for example) benefit greatly from the presence of a feminine figure in the home.
When I come home from work late at night, both my boys run down stairs and excitedly announce, ??Daddy's home!? I??m not just some ??parental unit,? neutered, without a gender. My children know about gender differences, celebrate, and embrace them.
Second, there is the possibility that a gay couple would encourage or even intentionally socialize their child into a homosexual lifestyle. This is not desirable.
I am sure that there would be some cases where the parents tried to raise the child as if they were a homosexual. This cannot be done! The child would have to be taught when they were young the difference between men and women, it would have to be explained clearly, obviously some things would need to be explained as the child got older and could grasp different ideas. The child would have to be able to grow and develop as a normal child would. They will adapt to the situation that they live in. If they want to tell their friends that their mom's lover is their aunt, or introduce their friends to both of their moms, that is something that the child will have to grow into as they are older. The parents would have to embrace whatever choices their child makes in their life, either hetero or homosexual. This is something a lot of heterosexual parents have trouble doing. The child then becomes afraid to tell their parents about their life, depression results, possible failed heterosexual marriages, more children that would now be in broken homes, etc. If the child raised by a homosexual couple wants to be hetero, that is fine! If anything I think the gay couple would be happy for them because they wouldnt have to go through the troubles that their life has seen. And, they would have biological grandchildren.  The same goes for the hetero couple that raises a child who comes out as gay/lesbian.
Originally posted by ScottR:
In my life, I have encountered a number of little children who live in a single-parent household (usually mother only). It never ceases to amaze me how a little girl longs for a real dad in the family. This is not abnormal. It is very natural. Even a little girl longs for a masculine figure in her family. She wants dad to read her the story of the three little pigs, not just mommy. She wants to rough house with dad and misses him when he??s away late at the office.
I think what we really forget in this debate is the precious little children. Little children want mom AND dad. And they want plenty of quality time from both parents. That makes them happy.
A lot of homosexual couple will have a masculine and a feminine role mode, even if they are of the same sex. A butch lesbian for example could be more masculine then most straight men.
Originally posted by ScottR:
I think it does matter what sort of messages we send them and the sort of behavior we promote.
Agreed!
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Ah what a debate, Homosexual's wont change, if we let them do what they want, they leave us alone? I know a couple gay people, they arnt bad like many people judge em. But I dont see why the US hasta be against that  then again, my stand point is, why create a big f-in fuss, a big debate, when all they have to do is just say ok fine. Does it affect the politicans personal life? No. Does it make the US look bad, Im pretty sure it does. But to me, let the homosexuals do as they would like, everyone is equal (sometimes I might not show it though   ) Everyone though deserves equal treatment.
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Originally posted by freakshow:
Common misconception there. That's very old school and not legal in Utah anymore. I lived there for 3 years and saw several news reports of men being arrested...kinda sad because I will never forget this one guy they busted with 9 wives and 63 kids. 
I'd say I lean somewhat towards allowing gay marriages with some mixed views on the overall issue BUT one thing that sorta annoys me about this issue is people comparing gay rights to racial issues; apples to oranges. A person has no control over what race they are born. Homosexuals (regardless of whatever kind of BS research you wanna toss at me) CHOOSE to be that way...big difference IMO.
I stand corrected on Utah... some of my knowledge, is, admittedly, out of date.
But, there are a couple of things that I want to point out... homosexuality is NOT a preference. Just like you or I find women attractive, there are those who find the same sex attractive. It's inborn (not inbred, dammit! LOL), not a choice... it actually ticks me off when people say "it's a choice," but can't find a way to argue that hetero is just as much of a choice.
The reason playing the racial issue to the sexuality issue isn't that far from apples to apples. The "civil unions" theory is literally "separate but equal rights," which as we all know was played against race going back to the 50's and 60's. Same argument, same bull reason- fear. Gays are technically a minority, just like any non-caucasian person. Why discriminate (and I don't mean be prejudiced, I mean make a distinct separation between) between one and not the other? It just doesn't hold any water.
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Originally posted by freakshow:
apples to oranges. A person has no control over what race they are born.
Oh yeah... I forgot.... this applies to everyone but Michael Jackson, it would seem. 
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Originally posted by bishop375:
I stand corrected on Utah... some of my knowledge, is, admittedly, out of date.
No biggie it's one of those old tales that a lot of people don't realize no longer applies. hell, had I not been stationed there for 3 years I would probably think it was true. Even though I may not care for the LDS church it is by far IMO one of the most misunderstood/misquoted religions out there.
Originally posted by bishop375:
But, there are a couple of things that I want to point out... homosexuality is NOT a preference. Just like you or I find women attractive, there are those who find the same sex attractive. It's inborn (not inbred, dammit! LOL), not a choice... it actually ticks me off when people say "it's a choice," but can't find a way to argue that hetero is just as much of a choice.
I don't dispute that heterosexuality is also a choice. Until someone can uncover some sort of "gay or hetero gene" and fully prove it exists I will continue to believe what I feel is true: sexuality is not a trait attributed to a gene it is a behavior. To this date I have seen no real evidence to indicate otherwise except some half assed excuse for "reasearch" that proves nothing in reality.
I think way too many people blame genes for more than they should. I'm a firm believer in the power of the mind not the power of the gene pool so maybe that skews my take on this and leads me to think too many people these days just want a convenient excuse to be something they don't like instead of working at fixing it. I'm not really talking so much about homosexuality here but more along the lines of...say for example someone who's mom is overweight and they say "Oh great Mom's fat so I'm probably gonna grow up fat" well DUH if you tell yourself that long enough instead of keeping yourself in shape of course you'll be fat. Then once they get fat they blame it on "bad genes" instead of the REAL problem of overeating and lack of exercise. Of course that doesn't apply to all overweight people either (put your flamethrowers down dammit) but anyway I'm getting way off the subject now I guess. Argue on people!
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Originally posted by freakshow:
A person has no control over what race they are born. Homosexuals (regardless of whatever kind of BS research you wanna toss at me) CHOOSE to be that way...big difference IMO.
Are you sure about that? I think that's a pretty common misconception. One of my friends at school is gay, and I've asked him many questions about this (and no matter how flaming he may be, he's still just a nice guy )- regardless, he says he does NOT choose to be gay- it's not like he has some switch inside of him that he can turn on whenever he sees a hot woman! Of course, it's much different if you're bisexual, but when you're talking about homosexuals, they do NOT CHOOSE to be gay. It's just the way they are- he says he does not choose to be that way.
Furthermore, there are also many instances of homosexual animals in nature, and remember that humans are also animals. Do animals in nature CHOOSE to be gay? Probably not.
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Originally posted by Nate S:
Originally posted by freakshow:
A person has no control over what race they are born. Homosexuals (regardless of whatever kind of BS research you wanna toss at me) CHOOSE to be that way...big difference IMO.
Are you sure about that? I think that's a pretty common misconception. One of my friends at school is gay, and I've asked him many questions about this (and no matter how flaming he may be, he's still just a nice guy )- regardless, he says he does NOT choose to be gay- it's not like he has some switch inside of him that he can turn on whenever he sees a hot woman! Of course, it's much different if you're bisexual, but when you're talking about homosexuals, they do NOT CHOOSE to be gay. It's just the way they are- he says he does not choose to be that way.
Furthermore, there are also many instances of homosexual animals in nature. Do they CHOOSE to be gay? Probably not.
Of course this doesn't take into account the massive amount of social exposure a person has had by the time they reach an age where they become sexually aware. There are many social factors and many things that can happen in a childhood that would make a person by how they are. Just imagine how different you would be if you had been raised by another family or in another culture.
Also take not of the social acceptance of homosexuality in many great empires... babylon... rome... where are those empires now?
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True, the social exposure a person gets during their childhood may perhaps dictate whether or not they become homosexual, but that still reiterates the point the homosexuals DON'T choose to be gay.
Personally, I think being a homosexual may come from a combination of social upbringing AND genes for some people, and for others, maybe just their social exposure during upbringing may dictate whether they become a homosexual (take children who have been sexually molested, just as one example...), and perhaps other people's sexuality is only dictated by genes...who knows.
Bottom line though is that they probably don't choose to be that way.
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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Obviously if you have ever read through our constitution, you would know that the United States was without a doubt NOT "founded on religion".
I was in the historic district in Philadelphia a few weeks back, where the documents that form the basis of our national government were written...
There's one document that forms the basis of our federal government and its called the Constitution. Although our constitution was drafted by Christians - very religious individuals - it contains no references to Christ, no references to Christianity, no references to God, and the only references it contains that pertain to religion are a prohibition on requiring religious oaths and a prohibiiton on state sponsored religion.
I can't conceive how anyone could read our constitution and come away with the impression that this was intended to be a blueprint for a Christian nation.
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Originally posted by Nate S:
Originally posted by freakshow:
A person has no control over what race they are born. Homosexuals (regardless of whatever kind of BS research you wanna toss at me) CHOOSE to be that way...big difference IMO.
Are you sure about that? I think that's a pretty common misconception. One of my friends at school is gay, and I've asked him many questions about this (and no matter how flaming he may be, he's still just a nice guy )- regardless, he says he does NOT choose to be gay- it's not like he has some switch inside of him that he can turn on whenever he sees a hot woman! Of course, it's much different if you're bisexual, but when you're talking about homosexuals, they do NOT CHOOSE to be gay. It's just the way they are- he says he does not choose to be that way.
Furthermore, there are also many instances of homosexual animals in nature, and remember that humans are also animals. Do animals in nature CHOOSE to be gay? Probably not.
Theres a book at my school's library on Top FAQ's on gays and lesbians... funny and interesting at the same time
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