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TB, I totally agree with everything you said. The only problem I have is that if his son was a PFC, that means this guy has only been in for at least 2 years, or a little more depending on how long he's been a PFC. Now, as we have seen before, reservists have been called up to help in situations like this. He did say his son didn't join to go to war, but didn't flinch when he was called, so I got to give it to him there......IF that was true, but since the guy is dead, we won't ever know if he called mommy and daddy whining about having to get into this, but for ANYONE to say they didn't join the military to go war..no matter if you are active, reserve,or nat. guard..... is stupid. You join ANY branch of them military you should expect that. I as well do not agree with the title to this thread, but it's already locked this way. The Reverand is not being hateful, he just wants whoever is responisble to be held accountable. Simple. When you get into the Christian arguement, then yes, Christians are supposed to forgive, but we are only human. As someone already stated, you don't know how you'll act if it happens to someone close to you....Christian or not, you WILL want the responsible party held accountable. ANYONE would. I notice that the ones who say things like "Aren't you Christians supposed to forgive" are either non-Christians, or aren't too strong in their religion. They want to use the Bible against Christians when they fell like it. Like those who know you are Christian, then try to do things to make the Christian do something "against" what the Bible says we are supposed to.......which is just wrong because even though God says that all fall short of the Glory of God, meaning nobody is perfect, so long as we ask forgiveness and MEAN it, we are forgiven, no matter what we do. Now, this is what I was taught to believe. If you were taught different, so be it. I am not going to argue about religion. Everyone has their owns beliefs, and I will not tell anyone their religion is wrong. 
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Originally posted by MrsFurby72:
TB, I totally agree with everything you said. The only problem I have is that if his son was a PFC, that means this guy has only been in for at least 2 years, or a little more depending on how long he's been a PFC. Now, as we have seen before, reservists have been called up to help in situations like this. He did say his son didn't join to go to war, but didn't flinch when he was called, so I got to give it to him there......IF that was true, but since the guy is dead, we won't ever know if he called mommy and daddy whining about having to get into this, but for ANYONE to say they didn't join the military to go war..no matter if you are active, reserve,or nat. guard..... is stupid. You join ANY branch of them military you should expect that.
I think I agree, but I'm not sure where I see your disagreement. I was in during Gulf War I and I did see soldiers who were given orders to the Gulf do things to prevent their deployment. For the ladies, pregnancy shot up, for the men, in the most extreme case, as self inflicted injury.
So I do think many join not expecting to go to war. Hey, people are often short sided. The recruiter certainly doesn't sell the potentially getting shot at as a benefit.
I made the conscious decision to enter the military to get an education with the knowledge that if we went to war, I may go. I didn't enter the military to go to war, but I agreed with a strong military defense of the nation, and was willing to go if called on, and if I got a couple of degrees out of it, bully for me.
I don't know if it is denial or just poor judgement, but many don't really expect to go to war.
However, this is simply a side discussion to the issue at hand.
But I can tell you one thing, as a Signal Officer in the Army, serving with a Pershing II nuclear missle unit, I was pretty sure that the Soviets would be gunning for me and my soldiers if war broke out. They certainly didn't want me to be able to recieve and deliver the launch codes, should they actually arrive.
However, I never shared with my mother, grandmother or sister that I would probably be a prime target on the battlefield. So in the event I was killed on the battlefield, I'm pretty sure it would have been a shock to my family.
TB
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Originally posted by LoudnQuik:
Yes but the reverend is also a man. he makes mistakes and he acts upon his first instincts. "Someone is to blame for my son's death" Any one of us would act this way if our sibling or family member was killed, its just that in this case with the political position he is in, it gets news coverage.
You and Tony make some good points. I will agree that the Reverend was reacting as a father and not a man of the cloth in this particular instance, and yes, that's to be expected. Maybe its just he way he presents it. To me, it sounds like "My son died, and I don't know or care whether or not it was just a combination of mistakes made by individuals, I just want someone... anyone... to be severely punished." I think my interpretation comes from being jaded by our society's desire for vindication even for the most petty of mistakes (not that a soldier's death is petty by any means). People sue for the dumbest things and ask for monetary damages way beyond any loss they suffered.
I don't know all the specifics of what happened to that convoy, but from what I've heard if they didn't miss that left turn they probably would have made it to their destination ok. It sounds like whoever was leading the convoy made a mistake, and by the time they all realized it, it was too late. The Reverend says that whomever "gave the order" should be responsible. What order? The order to deliver supplies to the 3rd infantry? The order to miss a left turn? This doesn't seem to fit here; maybe there's something missing from the quoted article. But if the convoy had gone the right route, they probably would have made it to their destination. War is hell, and its perfectly understandable that at night, in the desert, in a war, that someone would miss a left turn on roads that in many cases aren't marked. I guess I'm at a loss for who exactly should be responsible for this, since the article doesn't give much more detail.
If there are more details or facts that make this argument different, the Reverend should make them known, because it really sounds like headhunting the way he explains it.
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Originally posted by BOFH:
I think I agree, but I'm not sure where I see your disagreement. I was in during Gulf War I and I did see soldiers who were given orders to the Gulf do things to prevent their deployment. For the ladies, pregnancy shot up, for the men, in the most extreme case, as self inflicted injury.
So I do think many join not expecting to go to war. Hey, people are often short sided. The recruiter certainly doesn't sell the potentially getting shot at as a benefit.
I made the conscious decision to enter the military to get an education with the knowledge that if we went to war, I may go. I didn't enter the military to go to war, but I agreed with a strong military defense of the nation, and was willing to go if called on, and if I got a couple of degrees out of it, bully for me.
I don't know if it is denial or just poor judgement, but many don't really expect to go to war.
However, this is simply a side discussion to the issue at hand.
But I can tell you one thing, as a Signal Officer in the Army, serving with a Pershing II nuclear missle unit, I was pretty sure that the Soviets would be gunning for me and my soldiers if war broke out. They certainly didn't want me to be able to recieve and deliver the launch codes, should they actually arrive.
However, I never shared with my mother, grandmother or sister that I would probably be a prime target on the battlefield. So in the event I was killed on the battlefield, I'm pretty sure it would have been a shock to my family.
TB
I can go with ya on that TB. I understand what you are saying. Most ppl these days ONLY get into the military to get an education BUT they cannot sit there and whine when something like this happens. I know alot do, I do not disagree with you there, and I am sure ppl do inflict things upon themselves so they do not have to. In that case, they were not meant to be in the military. The military was never designed to be a stepping stone for ppl just want college educations and all, it's there for defense. Those who whimp out and try to do things like that so they won't have to go make me SICK. Sorry if some of you don't agree with that, but alot will agree.
Basically, I see the military in this order:
1. First and foremost, defense of our country
2. Help people to learn a job skill so they may serve and then go and use this skill in the civilian world, if they so choose.
3. To help those who cannot afford it to go to college on the GI Bill.
That is why when I hear ppl whining about having to fo fight for our country when they are part of the military makes me sick. The military was not put on this earth for their enjoyment, it's here for our protection and defense against morons like Sadaam and Osama.
I do not denounce those using it for the GI Bill, no biggie, but don't complain when you get called up is all I am saying.
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God knows I'm one of the first to condemn religious hypocrisy around here, but turning one man's quest to figure out exactly what happened to his son into a religious thing is a bit of a stretch IMO. The fact that his need to get answers overrode his supposed inclination to forgive & forget is proof of the power of emotion.
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Originally posted by hetfield:
If there are more details or facts that make this argument different, the Reverend should make them known, because it really sounds like headhunting the way he explains it.
Just remember, the Reverend probably didn't choose what to put in the article.
I'm not saying this is what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time selective quotes are used.
I don't think we are reading a news release by the Reverend, but instead a news story written and edited by journalists.
So I'll reserve judgement until I can see if these are a few things taken from a much larger interview.
Personally and of course hypothetically, the Rev could have come across sounding pretty angry when grief was heavy on his heart, and perhaps sounded more like what you might expect when he got control of him self.
Of course, that is speculation and he could have been indignant the entire time.
So I just caution all to withhold judgement unless you actually know more than what is presented here.
Also, it seems he was pretty upset with the notion that the whole thing was written off as an accident due to the "fog of war"
I do agree that the "someone anyone punished" is a bit over the top, to put it mildly. However, I don't see the word punish or punished anywhere in the Reverends quotes. I do see him use the word accountable.
Quote:
But the Rev. Howard Johnson Sr. on Wednesday disagreed: "The war didn't do this. The military did this."
He said someone needs to be held accountable for his 21-year-old son's death.
And I agree with this, if America is going to send their sons and daughters off to war, then they deserve the very best in leaders. Because as we can see here, mistakes can be deadly in the military profession.
TB
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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Dang, hetfield, you and I are on exactly the same page.
Read this article for a synopsis of what happened to these poor 507 folks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3055515.stm
The Army is putting the blame, essentially, on themselves. Trying to do too much in the time allotted, not recognizing the effect on the soldier, perhaps not properly preparing for such an event.
For "the Reverend" to go head hunting is EXTREMELY poor judgement from someone that MUST be held to a higher standard. Like the son, the Reverend voluntarily signed on for his service too. The "he's only human" excuse is a cop-out IMHO. It isn't like these comments were made in the heat of the moment; he has had more than sufficient time to do some soul-searching.
EDIT: Absolutely no argument here on whether the Rev's comments were properly conveyed by the reporter.
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Not sure if this comparison is really fair, but forgiveness and punishment can go hand in hand. Say a Christians son is murdered. You can forgive the person that killed your son, but the person would still be punished (life in prison.. blah blah etc. etc.) Hmm. trying to get across my point without sounding like an idiot. When I forgive someone it's almost like letting it go and letting God handle it. People who don't forgive try to punish the persons themselves. I think you have to forgive so that that event doesn't control your life. The person that does something wrong still must be held accountable for their actions. Of course, you kind of also have to weigh things from the point of mistake, or negligence... which also would spark a hot debate I'm sure. OK, enough babbling.. proceed to butcher me 
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Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
EDIT: Absolutely no argument here on whether the Rev's comments were properly conveyed by the reporter.
Yes, and Tony is spot on about this, too. However, everyone knows that when you talk to a reporter, you'll get misquoted in some way. I can understand wanting to make your story and your grief known to the world, but making angry accusations via the media about anyone, especially the military (which the media like to chastize) is foolish at best. In this case, I think Tony made a good point about press releases. Instead of being interviewed, the Reverend maybe should have issued some kind of typed statement, no matter how lengthy, and require it to be printed in whole, not in part. When a reporter tries to ask questions, refer them to the statement. Oh, and make sure your lawyer ok's it, too. Otherwise, you'll get exactly what you're asking for when you talk to the media.
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Originally posted by SVT Barge:
Of course, you kind of also have to weigh things from the point of mistake, or negligence... which also would spark a hot debate I'm sure.
I think this is where I agree with you. Again, the article doesn't say who exactly the Reverend wants to be held responsible, but by all accounts I've heard, the leader of the convoy made a very honest mistake that unfortunately led to the deaths of many soldiers. If there's someone who made a mistake that can be attributed to something foreseeable, or to negligence, then yes, there should be accountability. That hasn't been presented yet, though; just an angry accusation.
More facts really are needed to be able to back up the Reverend's statements.
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