Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,028 |
Originally posted by JaTo:
I've read through most of this and many of my counterpoints have already been made ad naseum.
Again, picking and choosing passages haphazardly out of the Bible to make a point against homosexuality is like putting together a puzzle from 4-5 different boxes...
4-5 different boxes? How do you get that? Okay, let's take one single verse.
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
"Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."
Sounds pretty obvious. Then let's add the rest around it shall we?
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
Leviticus 18 :
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Originally posted by JaTo:
You totally glass over the makeup behind the audience who was being addressed by each passage (at least those that are known), what the PRECISE message that particular author was trying to make, the relevance of the passage to the topic of homosexuality BY ITSELF (disregarding orgies, sex/fertility cults, basic cultural norms and taboos, etc.).
What you have done is turned the Bible into an historical document that no longer carries any power behind it. Jato, these verses were not written just for the Jews of the day, or for the time period they were living in. God's word is GOD'S WORD, regardless of time. These laws were not put into place to hinder the Jews, or us for that matter, they were put into place to PROTECT them. Homosexuality is dirty and sick. Having sex with animals is dirty and sick, and nothing you can do can change that these two practices are dirty and sick. Homosexuality creates a sickness in which there is no cure. I'm crying out to you to see this. God didn't make these laws for no reason, just for the people then, or for a history lesson. And if they are a history lesson, we should be learning from them, not doing the same things.
Originally posted by Jato:
Combine this with this interesting aside: Much that has been pulled out of Leviticus and pretty much anything that Paul has written has been used to condemn just about every identifiable and easily labeled minority (Jews, Muslims, blacks, gays, other Christians, etc.) on the planet at one time or the other. To be blunt, I'm seeing little difference here in much of this discourse. Care to challenge? 
Yeah, I'll challenge. Does the condemning that took place using these books of the Bible coincide with the rest of the Bible? No. The God of the Bible is a loving and caring God. Regardless of where you are in your life, He loves you. Whether you are living in sin or whether you are perfect. The thing you must understand though is that Jesus is just. He asks for total commitment to Him, give Him your utmost praise, and He will provide for you. What does He say will give Him this glory? Following his commands.
To love Him, you must love His commands, whether you completely understand them or not. He is ready to forgive, and waiting for you. Tonight, He has invited everyone of you. Don't wait. Heck, I don't understand all the commands He has made, but I know in my life that Jesus has saved me. I pray that you will know this too.
As for arguing about the hatred that has been spurned from what people say are Christian roots? Well, that just doesn't fit with Christ's love, which would mean that it is a human thing (stupid humans).
I CHALLENGE EVERYONE HERE TO READ THE WHOLE BIBLE, AND ACTUALLY TAKE IT IN, YOU'LL SEE IF YOU SEARCH HIS WORD. KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED.
Originally posted by Jato:
On the topic of condemnation (as this is what the war over homosexuality has turned into), what's your take on the Bible's SILENCE on the morality of slavery? How about the position and roles of hermaphrodites in society? I bring this up YET again (and I'm sure it will go unanswered yet again) as it's exclusion in Biblical literature has caused more than just a small amount of heartburn for those that are literal translationists of the Bible...
Well, let's see. The Bible doesn't say much about cancer patients either. The Bible doesn't say much about car accident victims, and the Bible doesn't say much about plants that eat flies.
There are variations in this world caused by the fall into sin. We cannot understand everything that happens in this world. The hermaphrodites are to be loved as all other human beings are, including homosexuals, cancer patients, car accident victims and plants that eat flies.
As for slavery, it is actually mentioned several times in the Bible. The New Testament actually does mention the topic of slavery several times, and tells how both the servent and the master should act toward one another.
Originally posted by Ephesians 6:5-9:
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Originally posted by Colossians 4:1:
1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
Originally posted by 1 Timothy 6:2:
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
The Bible also shows that there is no spiritual difference between any person due to their place, whether servant or master, on earth.
Originally posted by Galatians 3:28:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Or, you could say everybody is equally loved in God's eyes.
Originally posted by Colossians 3:11:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Same as above basically.
You'll find the same theme throughout the Bible. In the Old Testament there were specific time frames that servants could be kept, and how they were to be treated etc. etc. etc. Look at your job, unless you work for yourself, you are a servant, and these verses apply to you also.
Originally posted by jato:
Given this, how are you CERTAIN that the popularly-held Christian view of homosexuality being a sin is the RIGHT one? Give me undeniable SCRIPTURE that this is the case, as every piece of scripture I've seen thrown around on this topic has had a lot of issues passing muster when one considers the audience, the source, the ultimate topic at hand and the language used.
Don't make me post all of them again. Regardless of what people want to believe, homosexuality is a sin, it says so in the verses that I posted. The Bible was written for us all, if we can't understand that, then look at it this way. Everybody says it is good to look at history so as not to repeat the same mistakes. Look into the history of ROME. Look into the history of Sodom. Then look at the history of the United States.
Originally posted by jato:
Allow me to firmly state that NO other document in history has been taken out of context and used to work evil, bigotry and hatred more than the Bible.
None.
Having said that, is this grounds to give up on religion or God?
No.
I have found it as grounds to give up using my imperfect understanding of Biblical doctrine as a CRUTCH to judge and condemn others and their actions; especially when the level of clarification on certain topics in the Bible is very sketchy, even among some of the most astute Biblical scholars.
What you say about there being no condemnation in Christ is accurate. It's such a shame that many find the words and concepts of his apostles things that superceede his teachings...
There is no condemnation, but to live with that protection, you must believe and follow Jesus.
And to end all this, what better book would Satan have to use against Christians than the Holy word of God? Exactly. Satan uses everything he can to twist God's words.
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