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Originally posted by Static:
ok so I guess the sepration of church and state has its goods and its bad... there are downsides to everything... like the schools, you cant have a public prayer in school.
This feels like I am opening a new can of worms... I see no reason why this should not be allowed. However, like it will ever happen, if there is to be a prayer, it should be more universal to address all of the religions. Since that is never going to happen, and other children would cause problems with the people who stand out during the prayer, doing away with it was all that could be done. All we need kids causing problems (guns in school?) with the other kids because their God is better or whatever.
Originally posted by sigma:
There is no reason that something "so special" (as you say) should be reserved for heterosexual couples only, when there are millions of homosexual couples that are in the same loving relationships and even raising the same children.
Except certain laws prohibit children. Take Utah for example, since I am single, if my brother and his wife were killed somehow, I could not adopt my own brother's children because of me being single. Supposedly I wouldnt be able to provide them a good home because there is no wife in the picture. Granted there are loopholes around this too, dont adopt from a state run agency.
Originally posted by RGSOUNDF:
I am gonna fess up and say that the militant gay ppl do annoy crap out of me, by constantly trying to prove that all straight men are potentially gay and all this BS.
None of the gay people I know try to force their homosexuality onto others. At most they might get extra friendly until they realise that you are straight.
And going off of this, there isnt anything wrong with heterosexuals trying to date or turn the homosexuals straight? Same way of thinking. Granted, a comeback could be, "Well just tell them your gay!" But that can be turned around as well. If he/she is bothering you with their advances, just tell them that your straight and not intrested.
Originally posted by Static:
ok how about this... Why dont I agree with mike on this... if you want to do it then do it but keep that sh it away from me and no gay pride parades... if we dont get straight pride parades then no gay pride parades LOL
If you want one, plan one. I see no reason why a straight parade couldnt be planned. The city would most likely give you permission for it, and you would probably make the paper for doing it.
And, if you do it, make sure you tell me. I would so be for flying across to country to see it, mainly because to my knowledge there has never been a straight parade. You have to make sure you go all out though, band, baloons, parade, beer garden, etc. 
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hahaha I tell you what.... if you (the people of CEG) would like to provide funding for such a parade I will organize one for the people of the US. Since Oklahoma is a central place in the US I bet we could get people all around the US to come to this... but I think it would probably be turned into a "Hate the Gays" sorta thing... but yes I will put this together if you guys want to fund. LOL make like a big "Straight Pot" for the money LOL and I would assume that SVTcarboy will not be giving money nor attending such a thing
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Originally posted by GS474:
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ExDelayed - well said indeed, Sir. (For militant gays, pls visit NYC, preferrable afterhours... Nah, I am just kidding, you summed it up very well and correct).
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I've read through most of this and many of my counterpoints have already been made ad naseum. Again, picking and choosing passages haphazardly out of the Bible to make a point against homosexuality is like putting together a puzzle from 4-5 different boxes... You totally glass over the makeup behind the audience who was being addressed by each passage (at least those that are known), what the PRECISE message that particular author was trying to make, the relevance of the passage to the topic of homosexuality BY ITSELF (disregarding orgies, sex/fertility cults, basic cultural norms and taboos, etc.). Combine this with this interesting aside: Much that has been pulled out of Leviticus and pretty much anything that Paul has written has been used to condemn just about every identifiable and easily labeled minority (Jews, Muslims, blacks, gays, other Christians, etc.) on the planet at one time or the other. To be blunt, I'm seeing little difference here in much of this discourse. Care to challenge?  On the topic of condemnation (as this is what the war over homosexuality has turned into), what's your take on the Bible's SILENCE on the morality of slavery? How about the position and roles of hermaphrodites in society? I bring this up YET again (and I'm sure it will go unanswered yet again) as it's exclusion in Biblical literature has caused more than just a small amount of heartburn for those that are literal translationists of the Bible... Given this, how are you CERTAIN that the popularly-held Christian view of homosexuality being a sin is the RIGHT one? Give me undeniable SCRIPTURE that this is the case, as every piece of scripture I've seen thrown around on this topic has had a lot of issues passing muster when one considers the audience, the source, the ultimate topic at hand and the language used. ____________________________________________________________ Allow me to firmly state that NO other document in history has been taken out of context and used to work evil, bigotry and hatred more than the Bible. None. Having said that, is this grounds to give up on religion or God? No. I have found it as grounds to give up using my imperfect understanding of Biblical doctrine as a CRUTCH to judge and condemn others and their actions; especially when the level of clarification on certain topics in the Bible is very sketchy, even among some of the most astute Biblical scholars. What you say about there being no condemnation in Christ is accurate. It's such a shame that many find the words and concepts of his apostles things that superceede his teachings...
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Actually, the Bible does mention slavery, Jato. On a number of occassions. Philemon himself was a slave owner and has a whole chapter devoted to him.
However, it gives conflicting information on God's standing in the matter, and the same passage can be easily translated into 2 contradictory statements.
But, look at Phillipians 2:3, Corinthians 7:21,24, Philemon 1:15,16, and Timothy 1:10 just for a few.
Some translate Philemon 1:15,16 as meaning that Paul supported the idea of slavery. Some translate it as meaning he did not. Also, some versions translate "servant" as "slave" and vice versa, and can be inconsistent in what they translate as what.
Again, it's all in the translation. But slavery is brought up, in a moral aspect, several times in the Bible. It's just not consistent in what it says about it.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
I've read through most of this and many of my counterpoints have already been made ad naseum.
Again, picking and choosing passages haphazardly out of the Bible to make a point against homosexuality is like putting together a puzzle from 4-5 different boxes...
4-5 different boxes? How do you get that? Okay, let's take one single verse.
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
"Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."
Sounds pretty obvious. Then let's add the rest around it shall we?
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
Leviticus 18 :
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Originally posted by JaTo:
You totally glass over the makeup behind the audience who was being addressed by each passage (at least those that are known), what the PRECISE message that particular author was trying to make, the relevance of the passage to the topic of homosexuality BY ITSELF (disregarding orgies, sex/fertility cults, basic cultural norms and taboos, etc.).
What you have done is turned the Bible into an historical document that no longer carries any power behind it. Jato, these verses were not written just for the Jews of the day, or for the time period they were living in. God's word is GOD'S WORD, regardless of time. These laws were not put into place to hinder the Jews, or us for that matter, they were put into place to PROTECT them. Homosexuality is dirty and sick. Having sex with animals is dirty and sick, and nothing you can do can change that these two practices are dirty and sick. Homosexuality creates a sickness in which there is no cure. I'm crying out to you to see this. God didn't make these laws for no reason, just for the people then, or for a history lesson. And if they are a history lesson, we should be learning from them, not doing the same things.
Originally posted by Jato:
Combine this with this interesting aside: Much that has been pulled out of Leviticus and pretty much anything that Paul has written has been used to condemn just about every identifiable and easily labeled minority (Jews, Muslims, blacks, gays, other Christians, etc.) on the planet at one time or the other. To be blunt, I'm seeing little difference here in much of this discourse. Care to challenge?
Yeah, I'll challenge. Does the condemning that took place using these books of the Bible coincide with the rest of the Bible? No. The God of the Bible is a loving and caring God. Regardless of where you are in your life, He loves you. Whether you are living in sin or whether you are perfect. The thing you must understand though is that Jesus is just. He asks for total commitment to Him, give Him your utmost praise, and He will provide for you. What does He say will give Him this glory? Following his commands.
To love Him, you must love His commands, whether you completely understand them or not. He is ready to forgive, and waiting for you. Tonight, He has invited everyone of you. Don't wait. Heck, I don't understand all the commands He has made, but I know in my life that Jesus has saved me. I pray that you will know this too.
As for arguing about the hatred that has been spurned from what people say are Christian roots? Well, that just doesn't fit with Christ's love, which would mean that it is a human thing (stupid humans).
I CHALLENGE EVERYONE HERE TO READ THE WHOLE BIBLE, AND ACTUALLY TAKE IT IN, YOU'LL SEE IF YOU SEARCH HIS WORD. KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED.
Originally posted by Jato:
On the topic of condemnation (as this is what the war over homosexuality has turned into), what's your take on the Bible's SILENCE on the morality of slavery? How about the position and roles of hermaphrodites in society? I bring this up YET again (and I'm sure it will go unanswered yet again) as it's exclusion in Biblical literature has caused more than just a small amount of heartburn for those that are literal translationists of the Bible...
Well, let's see. The Bible doesn't say much about cancer patients either. The Bible doesn't say much about car accident victims, and the Bible doesn't say much about plants that eat flies.
There are variations in this world caused by the fall into sin. We cannot understand everything that happens in this world. The hermaphrodites are to be loved as all other human beings are, including homosexuals, cancer patients, car accident victims and plants that eat flies.
As for slavery, it is actually mentioned several times in the Bible. The New Testament actually does mention the topic of slavery several times, and tells how both the servent and the master should act toward one another.
Originally posted by Ephesians 6:5-9:
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Originally posted by Colossians 4:1:
1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
Originally posted by 1 Timothy 6:2:
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
The Bible also shows that there is no spiritual difference between any person due to their place, whether servant or master, on earth.
Originally posted by Galatians 3:28:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Or, you could say everybody is equally loved in God's eyes.
Originally posted by Colossians 3:11:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Same as above basically.
You'll find the same theme throughout the Bible. In the Old Testament there were specific time frames that servants could be kept, and how they were to be treated etc. etc. etc. Look at your job, unless you work for yourself, you are a servant, and these verses apply to you also.
Originally posted by jato:
Given this, how are you CERTAIN that the popularly-held Christian view of homosexuality being a sin is the RIGHT one? Give me undeniable SCRIPTURE that this is the case, as every piece of scripture I've seen thrown around on this topic has had a lot of issues passing muster when one considers the audience, the source, the ultimate topic at hand and the language used.
Don't make me post all of them again. Regardless of what people want to believe, homosexuality is a sin, it says so in the verses that I posted. The Bible was written for us all, if we can't understand that, then look at it this way. Everybody says it is good to look at history so as not to repeat the same mistakes. Look into the history of ROME. Look into the history of Sodom. Then look at the history of the United States.
Originally posted by jato:
Allow me to firmly state that NO other document in history has been taken out of context and used to work evil, bigotry and hatred more than the Bible.
None.
Having said that, is this grounds to give up on religion or God?
No.
I have found it as grounds to give up using my imperfect understanding of Biblical doctrine as a CRUTCH to judge and condemn others and their actions; especially when the level of clarification on certain topics in the Bible is very sketchy, even among some of the most astute Biblical scholars.
What you say about there being no condemnation in Christ is accurate. It's such a shame that many find the words and concepts of his apostles things that superceede his teachings...
There is no condemnation, but to live with that protection, you must believe and follow Jesus.
And to end all this, what better book would Satan have to use against Christians than the Holy word of God? Exactly. Satan uses everything he can to twist God's words.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
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"Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."
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Sounds pretty obvious. Then let's add the rest around it shall we?
How many times do I have to tell you what the real translation of this is?
Direct from Hebrew: "And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination."
That can also be interpreted that as meaning "Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman". As in, do not lie to oneself regarding your sexual orientation, for to deny yourself is to deny your Creator.
Quote:
I CHALLENGE EVERYONE HERE TO READ THE WHOLE BIBLE, AND ACTUALLY TAKE IT IN, YOU'LL SEE IF YOU SEARCH HIS WORD. KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED.
Been there, done that. Could probably quote it backwards in my sleep. Can do it in Hebrew too if you prefer. Nope, not a Jew, just a biblical scholar.
Quote:
Don't make me post all of them again. Regardless of what people want to believe, homosexuality is a sin, it says so in the verses that I posted.
And I've posted an equal number of verses saying differently.
What's your point?
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Look into the history of ROME. Look into the history of Sodom. Then look at the history of the United States
You should look into the history of Rome yourself. You know what probably the single biggest reason of it's downfall was?
I'll give you a clue, it wasn't homosexuality.
It was Christianity. They got religion.
Quote:
Jato, these verses were not written just for the Jews of the day, or for the time period they were living in. God's word is GOD'S WORD, regardless of time.
Oh really?
Then why has "GOD'S WORD" changed so much every single time the Bible has been translated?
And I don't mean just some words changing. I mean entire passages being changed in such a way as to reflect the time of the writing.
I don't know how long it will take you to understand that your Bible is not God's Word. The KJV and NIV are about as close to the original Bible as Jack and the Beanstalk.
Quote some passages in Hebrew and we'll be closer to the real Word and we can have a real theological discussion. But I'll tell you now, you'll have a real hard time finding any verses to support your argument in a old Hebrew Bible.
Quote:
And to end all this, what better book would Satan have to use against Christians than the Holy word of God? Exactly. Satan uses everything he can to twist God's words.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
As time passed, Man's own self-interest -- his own evil influences -- created changes in the Bible. The changes that you read now, and quote as the Word of God.
They are not the Word of God. They are the Word of God, Spoken by Man and influenced by Satan and Evil. Those words now breed misunderstanding, judgement, and even hate amongst even like-minded Christians.
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man oh man this is insane... I wonder if it will hit 50 pages
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Originally posted by GS474:
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Originally posted by sigma:
Actually, the Bible does mention slavery, Jato. On a number of occassions.
I totally agree that slavery is mentioned in the Bible, as I've said before. The moral aspects of it aren't, which is what I've been beating into the mud.
Originally posted by sigma:
Philemon himself was a slave owner and has a whole chapter devoted to him.
And what is the CORE message of that chapter? 
Originally posted by sigma:
However, it gives conflicting information on God's standing in the matter, and the same passage can be easily translated into 2 contradictory statements.
But, look at Phillipians 2:3, Corinthians 7:21,24, Philemon 1:15,16, and Timothy 1:10 just for a few.
I have (long before this) and I'm finding nothing that directly or really even indirectly talks to the moral implications behind slavery: the core question of it addressed in scripture as being morally RIGHT or WRONG. This is even going through KJ, NIV, NASB and RSV translations that I have at my disposal...
...and also remembering any number of lectures I had in a Comparative Religions and an Ethics/Morals class, not to mention a NUMBER of discussions with a Catholic priest about.
I will give you that the OT delineates a number of regulations and laws concerning the ownership of slaves. This doesn't expressly talk about whether slavery is right or wrong, though.
Throughout it's passages, the NT loosely states to treat slaves well. That's all fine and dandy but it says nothing of the morality behind slavery.
Jesus treated criminals well; this in of itself most certainly doesn't address if being criminal is morally right or wrong. It merely provides yet another example of forgiveness and tolerance and what Christian fellowship is supposed to be about...
I'm not even going into the owership of slaves by the Church, by priests and by other prominent figures in the Bible and what assumption can be drawn from that (OT or NT, pick either one). Remember, slaves were a class unto themselves back them. It's acceptance by the Judeo-Christian religion FAR into the Middle-Ages and beyond is a HISTORICAL fact and one that is not in doubt.
Originally posted by sigma:
Some translate Philemon 1:15,16 as meaning that Paul supported the idea of slavery. Some translate it as meaning he did not. Also, some versions translate "servant" as "slave" and vice versa, and can be inconsistent in what they translate as what.
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Paul can be a beast to read. I'd argue that it has little to do with slavery save in name only; Paul was talking in terms of Christian fellowship and botherhood with one another in light of past circumstances (one being a slave and the other being the master). The core message of Philemon is one of having a believer put down the laws of the Earth (a slave that stole from his master was punishable by death under Roman law) in order to fulfill Christian works with someone who had and still should have (under Roman law) a VERY different role in society.
If Paul wanted to denounce the evils of slavery, a lecture would have been in order, as it was on any number of other subjects. Not a simple letter or plea. Again, don't forget the prevalance of slavery and the total acceptance of it in any society in 60 AD. Not for one minute.
As it is, Jesus himself had a number of chances to denounce slavery in a number of sermons, being that he was surrounded by it on a number of occasions...
Why wasn't it taken?
Originally posted by sigma:
Again, it's all in the translation. But slavery is brought up, in a moral aspect, several times in the Bible.
I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with this. I've read the Bible cover-to-cover, with references and without. The fundamental moral question of slavery being right or wrong remains unanswered in it's entirety. The treatment and laws of slavery are discussed, yes. The moral aspect of OWNING another human being as property is never touched.
History shows that it was an entirely acceptable institution within the Church and without in any number of societies and civiliations.
Originally posted by sigma:
It's just not consistent in what it says about it.
I've found nothing on it stating whether slavery was right or wrong, and I've looked like mad, hoping to find something, ANYTHING that could be stretched to resemble a discourse on the evils of owning another human being.
Now, after that HUGE tangent, back to regular programming...
JaTo
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Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
4-5 different boxes? How do you get that? Okay, let's take one single verse.
Originally posted by BIBLE, GOD'S WORD:
"Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."
Sounds pretty obvious. Then let's add the rest around it shall we?
Of course, but since you're using a flawed translation for the basis of this entire excercise, you're going to come up with what you want to belive and what you've been taught to belive EACH and EVERY single time.
Period.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
...What you have done is turned the Bible into an historical document that no longer carries any power behind it.
You're telling me the census in Numbers is something MORE than a historical reading? There are PARTS of the Bible that pertain almost wholly to historical reference. There are also parts of the Bible that serve as a guide for all mankind in all times.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
Jato, these verses were not written just for the Jews of the day, or for the time period they were living in.
Start sacrificing sheep on your front lawn, then and don't eat certain meats during certain times of the week. Or am I referring to parts of the Bible that now serve ONLY AS HISTORICAL REFERENCE? 
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
God's word is GOD'S WORD, regardless of time. These laws were not put into place to hinder the Jews, or us for that matter, they were put into place to PROTECT them......
How long do you wish to keep this up? We can keep pulling verses and counterpoints up until we each grow a 3rd eye.
Let's just say I've had the benefit of viewing the Bible as not only a divine guide to my own life, but that of a historical reference, a book of supersticions and a work of moral and ethical parables. There's nothing more challenging to one's faith; one can either sit on their a$$ and swallow wholesale everything that is spoon-fed by what is known as popular Christian belief at the time (which changes over time, I might add), or one can really test their belief and temper it through the tough questions:
The one's that the Bible aren't readily clear on at ALL.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
As for slavery, it is actually mentioned several times in the Bible. The New Testament actually does mention the topic of slavery several times, and tells how both the servent and the master should act toward one another.
I'm going to explode if another person pulls this one again. YES, slavery is mentioned. The MORAL aspects of it AREN'T. How one should act toward the other doesn't talk about the morality behind slavery itself! (i.e., whether slavery is MORALLY RIGHT OR WRONG). How can I be any clearer on this?
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
The Bible also shows that there is no spiritual difference between any person due to their place, whether servant or master, on earth.
So, you're stating in a roundabout fashion that Bible morally condones slavery?
Originally posted by Galatians 3:28:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
Or, you could say everybody is equally loved in God's eyes.
So, you're willing to come to grips with the fact that the Bible does in fact support slavery as an institution? Or did this change as societies views on it changed?(apparently the churches views are much different and treat certain passages on slavery as HISTORICAL REFERENCE)
Remember, I'm not the one stating that what the Bible states is permanent for all time. You are.
Originally posted by Colossians 3:11:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Same as above basically.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
You'll find the same theme throughout the Bible. In the Old Testament there were specific time frames that servants could be kept, and how they were to be treated etc. etc. etc. Look at your job, unless you work for yourself, you are a servant, and these verses apply to you also.
VERY nice cop-out! Bravo! But I'm not falling for that. We're talking about a class-based system of servitude: don't BS me or anybody else on this. The Bible ISN'T referring to workers in general...
Or if they are, they again mention NOTHING about true slavery and we are back to where we started.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
There is no condemnation, but to live with that protection, you must believe and follow Jesus.
Easier said than done, especially given the mass of translations of Biblical verse between certain religions within Christianity...
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
And to end all this, what better book would Satan have to use against Christians than the Holy word of God? Exactly. Satan uses everything he can to twist God's words.
No truer words have ever been spoken. He's even used the Church itself from time to time...
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