Originally posted by SVTNupe:
JaTo, you go back and forth too much for me. You all over the place with your explanations comparing OT to NT, simplest creatures to the most complex, etc.


I beg to differ. I've never made comparisons here with OT vs. NT. Reread my posts on this. I said that a number of religious groups used and followed OT laws in terms of justifying slavery up until recent centuries. No comparisons here between the different books. Try again.

My comparisons with animal vs. human behavior aren't all over the board either. They are pretty direct and easy to understand in that pretty much the same percentage of studied animals exhibit the statistical estimate of homosexual activity among humans in very much the same fashion.

I'm merely counterpointing your statements here. I do tend to pull thoughts and concepts from different directions in places, but I've been rather careful to keep them into direct perspective here.

Let me clarify anything I've been "muddy" on. Please.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
You obviously have some problems with the Bible.


With literal translations of certain passages and taking a document at face-value that was written in a time, culture and environment almost alien as compared with todays?

Absolutely. Especially ones that are used to wholesale castigate an entire group of people for a particular type of behavior that is massively stereotyped.

With the core messages of the Bible? Absolutely not.


Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Personally, I think you miss some very simple points illustrated by the writer, Paul in this case, was trying to convey. You're like most people I've run in to who don't want to take the text of the scriptures at face value.



I believe I understand his simple points for the most part...

You really want to run down this path with me? The REASON behind the segmentation of the Christian religion into different groups of belief (Baptist, Methodist, C. of Christ, various flavors of Catholicism, etc., etc.) is due ENTIRELY because people CAN'T take half of the Bible at face-value. Different interpretations of what is permissible and what isn't exist across all religious to one degree or another.

Guess what? They ALL stem from the same scripture! I challenge you to tell me this isn't true!

In that, I'm no different than any other Christian.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
I agree that at times you need to understand the context of the situation to correctly understand the scriptures but in other instances its meaning is clear without it.

I fully agree this statement.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Why doesn't it touch on certain themes? Don't know, perhaps it's not important.



Ok, now I'm getting agitated here with that last bit.

Allow me to make a comparison of you as you did of me. Pardon the label, but you seem to be like most Bible-Nazis I know in that any challenging topic that that scripture can't or doesn't directly address is one of little importance in their lives. Once controversy comes out, on go the bliders to keep one's concept and ideas of faith and belief intact and unchallenged!

THAT IS FLAT-OUT WRONG!

Do you know what polarizing moral topics you've just dismissed out of hand? For starters, the one's we've been going over: Slavery, Homosexuality, hermaphrodites. There are others as well; my mind's not in gear to address them this morning, however.

How can you so easily do this?


Originally posted by SVTNupe:
ALso, I don't need the Bible to hide behind in regards to this subject. It was brought in to play by you. And I guess the only reason why it was, was so that you could shoot down the many religious groups who don't believe in folks being gay based on the scriptures.



Yes, it was brought up by me as misunderstood references in the Bible have been the cornerstone of persecution and bigotry in the agruments against homosexuals. There's been little else that has fueled the flames of castigation and hatred for this group of humans...

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Like I stated earlier, I don't believe it to be natural and I don't care if a damn male frog humps another.



Sorry, it is natural as it occurs in nature. FACT. Is it normal? No, as it only occurs in a small percentage of the population as I've said ad naseum here.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
If it was natural and by some chance the whole human race became gay, how the hell would we reproduce?



Of course, that argument doesn't take reality into consideration. I think you are getting "natural" and "normal" mixed up here.

Again, given a human's biological urges at the basest of levels, this will NEVER happen.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
I've heard of several females in a species who kill the male after sex. Since that is a natural process in the animal world, I guess it'd be okay if women started killing us men because we always get off before they do?! I guess petifiles (sp?) would qualifiy in this context too? They can't help being attracted to children, right? Please explain the difference if there is one.



Gladly and I'll do it first using Biblical rule/reasoning and won't even touch the framework of secular law here:

1) Murder - The morality of this act isn't in question in the Bible at all. OT, NT; the rule is the same. If a women would kill a man after sex just for the hell of it, it's not killing in self-defence, nor killing in a time of war, it's murder!

In short, the Bible specifically forbids this type of activity (murder) and there's no controversy surrounding it, either.

2) Pedophilia - Classified as sex outside/before marriage and EVERYONE knows what the Bible says about that. in Biblical terms, that's wrong, period: heterosexual or homosexual. With the above-example, you're bordering on a psychological dysfunction in terms of self-control issues. Homosexuality at it's base is NEITHER of these.

Originally posted by SVTNupe:
This is not passing judgement in my context which would be to condem that person for their lifestyle. If they want to live like that, it's on them. Just don't try to tell me it's natural. That's all I'm saying.



Fair enough, though it IS natural in that it's found in nature though it ISN'T normal.

JaTo e-Tough Guy Missouri City, TX 99 Contour SVT #143/2760 00 Corvette Coupe