|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718
Hard-core CEG'er
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718 |
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
...They have a choice as to whether they want to act on those feelings just as I have a choice as to whether I want to act on the feelings I have for a woman. That's the choice I'm talking about
Again, you make the presumption that being homosexual by itself is morally wrong with this statement...
...and with little to no evidence in tow.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei
...this from a man who was forced to renounce his ideas of astronomy and imprisoned for claiming that the Sun was the center of our universe to the church, not the Earth.
No, the Christian religion nor it's followers have never had a history of misunderstanding things. 
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 278
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 278 |
"I beg to differ. I've never made comparisons here with OT vs. NT. Reread my posts on this. I said that a number of religious groups used and followed OT laws in terms of justifying slavery up until recent centuries. No comparisons here between the different books. Try again." What you do is question why one thing is done in the OT Vs. the NT. That was my point. I haven't seen or heard of that study but again, we aren't wild animals. We're human beings. I don't understand why the necesatity to make that comparison? Yes the culture may be alien to ours but the concepts aren't. Yes, I know the reason and don't agree with it. That was my point in an earlier post that we (man) have made the to read so as to satisfy what we believe. Show me a denomination in the scriptures. It doesn't exist yet they are here today. "Guess what? They ALL stem from the same scripture! I challenge you to tell me this isn't true!" I won't dispute that. "In that, I'm no different than any other Christian." Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Why doesn't it touch on certain themes? Don't know, perhaps it's not important.
"Ok, now I'm getting agitated here with that last bit.
THAT IS FLAT-OUT WRONG!"
My point was that it may not have been important to the context of THAT scripture. You asked earlier why aborition wasn't discussed in the scriptures. My answer is, I don't know. Since it wasn't and there are some questions regarding how God views it, I'd rather play it safe and hope that I never have to go down that path.
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
ALso, I don't need the Bible to hide behind in regards to this subject. It was brought in to play by you. And I guess the only reason why it was, was so that you could shoot down the many religious groups who don't believe in folks being gay based on the scriptures.
"Yes, it was brought up by me as misunderstood references in the Bible have been the cornerstone of persecution and bigotry in the agruments against homosexuals. There's been little else that has fueled the flames of castigation and hatred for this group of humans..."
You're claiming that they are misunderstood and personally, you haven't convinced me that what I quote from Romans doesn't address homosexuallity. Are you telling me I completely misunderstood what was meant by giving up natural relations for unatural ones with each other?
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Like I stated earlier, I don't believe it to be natural and I don't care if a damn male frog humps another.
"Sorry, it is natural as it occurs in nature. FACT. Is it normal? No, as it only occurs in a small percentage of the population as I've said ad naseum here."
Fine, if that's the context you're coming from then it's not normal.
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
I've heard of several females in a species who kill the male after sex. Since that is a natural process in the animal world, I guess it'd be okay if women started killing us men because we always get off before they do?! I guess petifiles (sp?) would qualifiy in this context too? They can't help being attracted to children, right? Please explain the difference if there is one.
"Gladly and I'll do it first using Biblical rule/reasoning and won't even touch the framework of secular law here:
1) Murder - The morality of this act isn't in question in the Bible at all. OT, NT; the rule is the same. If a women would kill a man after sex just for the hell of it, it's not killing in self-defence, nor killing in a time of war, it's murder!
In short, the Bible specifically forbids this type of activity (murder) and there's no controversy surrounding it, either.
2) Pedophilia - Classified as sex outside/before marriage and EVERYONE knows what the Bible says about that. in Biblical terms, that's wrong, period: heterosexual or homosexual. With the above-example, you're bordering on a psychological dysfunction in terms of self-control issues. Homosexuality at it's base is NEITHER of these."
In who's opinion? So being a homosexual is no more normal than being a peodophile, correct?
Curtis
3L 'Oval Port' 98 Black SVT
180.5HP/178lbft
'03 Black Sport Trac
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307 |
Originally posted by DanLeCompte:
^^ Speaking of violently judgemental. (Here's one of those  for you)
I make no claims to be a Biblical scholar or an authority on the subject, but don't you think with all the great minds that have come and gone since Jesus, the world would be a little closer to seeing the scripture as the myth that you see it as?
And as I read further, I was dumbfounded by your stupidly high opinion of yourself:
Quote:
If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could pull dozens of inconcistencies, at least, out of the Gospels alone.
Wow, just like that huh? People have been trying to do this unsuccessfully for thousands of years and all it took was for The Great Wisdom of bishop375 to come along.
First, I never claimed to NOT be judgemental. But, I'd rather be judgemental of a certain type of person who condemns people for something that is out of their control. If you told me that a person with Down's Syndrome CHOSE to have it, I'd treat you with the same disdain as I do for those that say people CHOOSE to be gay.
Second, there are several religions who see the Christian Bible as myth. Take the Jews, for example, who think the New Testament is a load of crap. But, obviously their opinions don't count because there are so few of them. Dozens of Pagan religions. Muslims. Buddhists. All think the same of the Bible. Shall I continue?
Third, I was in a Catholic school for nine years. I've read the Bible. Pretty much front to back, several times. In my head, even at the age of 9, I can remember reading things that didn't match up. What they were, I don't recall. And, no, people haven't been working thousands of years to find inconcistencies... they've been trying to find evidence of it all being true. Try again.
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307 |
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Also, I didn't say anything about the choice of being gay. My point, again, was about the choice of acting on it.
Oooooooooooooooooooh. I see. So, it's not a choice for someone to BE gay, they just have a choice to ACT on it. It makes total sense now.
So, you just assume that every gay man or woman is instantly attracted to and is dating any and every other gay man or woman out there. There's no specific physical or emotional attraction, other than the fact that they're gay. Wonderful. They must all love each other and find each other SO attractive.
And, who said we were a wild animal? We're an animal, just like any other. We're not plants, we're not minerals, we must be animals. Just a different species of one. A more mentally advanced one, possibly, but, still an animal. Just more domesticated than a lot of others.
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 660
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 660 |
bishop
So your 9 year old mind didn't think it matched up? That's rough. At 9, I thought algebra didn't make any sense. Apparently it's not true. If I had time, I'd go quote inconsistencies.
There's obviously no point debating with you since every post you make is the definitive truth. I don't think you're going to win any viewpoints by stating your opinion or even some facts with the implied sentence 'There you have it, I'm the winnner, give up now because you obviously can't refute my points, and you're stupid' following them.
I've got the proof that it's all true in my life. I know that God saved me and I've seen how He works in my life.
I was never much for debate, and I'm not that good at it so I'll save you the trouble, you win. I don't concede your points, but I'm out so you win.
Hey Tubs, I just lost my jengajam.
Your ghetto pass has been revoked. You're no longer an honorary brother.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718 |
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
What you do is question why one thing is done in the OT Vs. the NT. That was my point.
I was making more a statement of historical fact than anything here.
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
I haven't seen or heard of that study but again, we aren't wild animals. We're human beings. I don't understand why the necesatity to make that comparison?
Some activities between species are very similar if not the same.
Allow me to pound the word "SOME" into the ground here so we don't get off on another merry-go-round tangent...
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Yes the culture may be alien to ours but the concepts aren't.
The concepts of slavery, women as property, equal rights across race, gender, etc. were ALL very different then than they are now. These just aren't cultural, either. They are very fundamental beliefs that have CHANGED and the churches view have changed with them to a degree.
I'd say a lot of past concepts are very alien to what today's standards are...
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Yes, I know the reason and don't agree with it. That was my point in an earlier post that we (man) have made the to read so as to satisfy what we believe. Show me a denomination in the scriptures. It doesn't exist yet they are here today.
Please clarify. I'm totally lost on this one.
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
My point was that it may not have been important to the context of THAT scripture. You asked earlier why aborition wasn't discussed in the scriptures. My answer is, I don't know. Since it wasn't and there are some questions regarding how God views it, I'd rather play it safe and hope that I never have to go down that path.
But since other people are on that path (right or wrong), they are dismissed with a wave of the hand?
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
You're claiming that they are misunderstood and personally, you haven't convinced me that what I quote from Romans doesn't address homosexuallity. Are you telling me I completely misunderstood what was meant by giving up natural relations for unatural ones with each other?
For the most part, yes, as the scripture has been taken out of context for what it was originally intended to address...
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
In who's opinion? So being a homosexual is no more normal than being a peodophile, correct?
Sigma nailed this one on the head much better than I've been able to, though I think the definition of pedophilia is getting crossed up here...
...and finally, sex between two consenting adults that are sexually aware and are old enough to grasp the consequences of their actions is TOTALLY different than someone preying on innocents.
Bad comparion, that one.
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 278
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 278 |
Jato,
It's just the attraction the pedophile feels that I am speaking on. Nothing else.
Bishop,
I can speak on how or why someone is gay. All I can speak on are the actions. If you don't believe you have a choice as to whether you want to act on your actraction for someone else then that's you.
Curtis
3L 'Oval Port' 98 Black SVT
180.5HP/178lbft
'03 Black Sport Trac
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718 |
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Jato,
It's just the attraction the pedophile feels that I am speaking on. Nothing else.
AH! I understand now, though I still don't know how the normality of either is still in question here. The attraction that homosexuals or pedophiles feel isn't normal by any stretch of the imagination, though I would contend that the morality of both is a different matter alltogether.
Something being normal or abnormal doesn't dictate morality.
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307 |
Dan, I'm glad that you believe in God. I'm glad that you feel he saved your life. Not once did I ever tell anyone to NOT believe in something. Go back and look through these posts to tell me when I did. There were questions of concistency through the bible. As I stated, I'm sure that I could point a few out. And, an FYI, I picked 9 out of my head. The same things that seemed inconcistent at 9 did so when I was 12, did so everytime I've thumbed through a bible.
I've got no problem with religion. It's a necessity for people to believe in SOMETHING. Me? What do I believe in? No idea.
My problem is with people using the Bible as a weapon so that they can passively judge others who have done absolutely NOTHING to other people. When was the last time you heard about a handful of drunken gay men jumping a straight guy simply because he was straight? Funny, I've never heard of it. And yet, people will say that gays will go to hell because it's "unnatural," and that "God says it's wrong," all written in a book that was conceived LONG before the times of modern science, long before instances of animals mating with those of the same sex were even witnessed, let alone written down.
I get pissed off because, in my experience, the majority of devout Christians that I have encountered are of the feeling that everyone who doesn't believe in exactly the same thing as they do are wrong, evil, and are going to hell. That, to me, is just as bad as any racism, sexism, or any prejudice against ANY person.
Bah... so much for the religion that supposedly preaches tolerance and love for all living things, even if they don't agree with you or make sense to you.
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307 |
Originally posted by SVTNupe:
Bishop,
I can speak on how or why someone is gay. All I can speak on are the actions. If you don't believe you have a choice as to whether you want to act on your actraction for someone else then that's you.
Think about what you just said. "Weather you want to act on your attraction for someone else then that's you." You're treating every single gay man or woman as though they are straight, and have chosen infidelity with someone of a different sex. WHY is that always the assumption with gay people?! When you were single, you saw attractive women, right? Some you may even have felt **gasp.. it's a sin!** lust for. Assuming you get married, you'll have to have acted on that attraction at least once, right?
What is wrong with two people loving each other, regardless of what reproductive organs they have? Why does it matter at all?!?!?
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
|
|
|
|
|
