|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 7,012
Hard-core CEG'er
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 7,012 |
Oo (xxx)oO
o xxxxxxxx o
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Your summary of the points made between Rara and Loco is more or less correct. Your conclusion about what that amounted to, however, is baseless, and your cracks about people's personality traits are completely uncalled for, and not justified by the data, because you're both painting Hector as refusing to back down from broad claims that only you put on the table, not him.
So let's try to have a bit of basic discipline and courtesy here: rule 1 being to discuss brakes rather than people, and rule 2 being to address the point the other guy actually made, instead of what you'd like to read it as between the lines. Don't those strike you as sound principles?
What everybody has learned here is that there are lots of reasons why cross-drilling is not good, and at the same time there's one solid example of some cross-drilled rotors being superior to some plain rotors. There is nothing inconsistent about both of these being true. It's no grounds whatever for making personal attacks, or even for claiming that anyone is in the wrong.
Now I still would like to know whether cross-drilling might be a good idea for long downhill descents. I'm guessing this might be one situation where they actually help, since the problem is heat accumulation over many minutes with no hard braking at any one time, so rate of cooling is more important than thermal mass. That's what I got cross-drilling for, and I still have no idea whether it helped or not.
Last edited by Paul Kienitz; 05/23/03 10:37 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383 |
ha ha ha ha don't spill your tea on your lap, Paul. This isn't a professional organization, it's an internet board. Get over yourself and don't jam your pinky too hard drinking your tea.
Now...on to you, personally. You clearly have a literary capacity far beyond your cognitive skills or you'd have GOT IT by now that the cross drilling [censored] HURTS HEAT CAPACITY, and what time would that heat capacity be taxed to its highest? Oh, maybe on a long descent, with few cooldown periods? I mean DAMN. 
Pacific Green '96 Contour LX V6
â??98 GTP, light mods, 14.66/94
Calypso Green '92 Mustang LX coupe, 13.56/101
Crown Autocross Club 1999 Street Tire Champion, 2000/2001/2002 Street Modified Champion
KCR SCCA 2002 Solo II Street Modified Champion
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by Rara:
I think that is more than plenty to show the LoCo is attributing his "fantastic" brakes to the cross-drilling on the rotors. Or at least that is what he is telling the rest of the world . . .
Nothing you quoted says that. Nothing you quoted implies that logically. Every quote you quoted just says "This brand of crossdrilled rotor is superior to stock rotors". Nowhere is the superiority attributed to the drill holes themselves. Just to the brand/model of rotor, which happens to have that feature among others.
On the 14 factors vs. two, I'll just say that the manufacturer has lots of degrees of freedom for each part but the consumer only has one, and since we're discussing consumer choices that seems to me to be the range to focus on. Which is what the rest of us have done; nobody else made special claims any more particular than the brand/model choice level.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149 |
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Your conclusion about what that amounted to, however, is baseless, and your cracks about people's personality traits are completely uncalled for, and not justified by the data, because you're both painting Hector as refusing to back down from broad claims that only you put on the table, not him.
Originally posted by LoCoz2.0:
My cross drilled rotors work tons better than the crappy stock rotors. The C/D are not warped at all. I know bigger brakes are always better but for us poor folk C/D is a good option! With all the abuse I put on my C/D...the stockers would have been garbage!
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
So let's try to have a bit of basic discipline and courtesy here: rule 1 being to discuss brakes rather than people, and rule 2 being to address the point the other guy actually made, instead of what you'd like to read it as between the lines.
Have you read this thread? Maybe you should start at the beginning. Rara has gone out of his way, and in lengthy detail, of brake materials--the crux of this thread!!!
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
What everybody has learned here is that there are lots of reasons why cross-drilling is not good, and at the same time there's one solid example of some cross-drilled rotors being superior to some plain rotors. There is nothing inconsistent about both of these being true. It's no grounds whatever for making personal attacks, or even for claiming that anyone is in the wrong.
It appears that proper research methodology escapes you. This, too, was discussed. So many factors changed in Hector's example that it cannot be relied upon. The numerous changes explained by Rara ARE IN FACT CHANGES! Small, seemingly insignificant factors, add up to very large problems. If you haven't gotten that concept by now then God help you.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Now I still would like to know whether cross-drilling might be a good idea for long downhill descents. I'm guessing this might be one situation where they actually help, since the problem is heat accumulation over many minutes with no hard braking at any one time, so rate of cooling is more important than thermal mass. That's what I got cross-drilling for, and I still have no idea whether it helped or not.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149 |
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Nothing you quoted says that. Nothing you quoted implies that logically. Every quote you quoted just says "This brand of crossdrilled rotor is superior to stock rotors". Nowhere is the superiority attributed to the drill holes themselves. Just to the brand/model of rotor, which happens to have that feature among others.
See my post above. You OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ PAGE ONE! 
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
On the 14 factors vs. two, I'll just say that the manufacturer has lots of degrees of freedom for each part but the consumer only has one, and since we're discussing consumer choices that seems to me to be the range to focus on. Which is what the rest of us have done; nobody else made special claims any more particular than the brand/model choice level.
No, we have many choices--more than just C/D or non-C/D. Just in non-C/D there is everything from the $20 AutoZone rotor to the $100+ rotor. By choosing a vendor and price point, you are choosing material, weight, etc.--all the little things that add together for a low- quality or high-quality rotor. YOUR choice to ignore those little things by not doing research on vendors doesn't mean OUR only choice is ONE non-C/D rotor or ONE C/D rotor.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by RogerB:
1) Learn critical thinking.
2) Learn about the scientific method.
From all appearances, it certainly seems that you are attributing the results to the holes.
"Critical thinking"... my god.
Rara has emphasized that he does brakes for a living, and naturally for someone in that position it's painful to see what seems to be misinformation. Well, I do logic for a living. And seeing misuses of logic like this -- insisting someone is clinging to a given idea even though (a) none of his words actually say so and (b) he's explicitly disavowed the idea being attributed to him... well, that gives me a pain in the same part of my being that hurts Rara if someone thinks cadmium plating shortens stopping distances.
This reminds me of an email debate I got into over the war in Iraq. The other guy kept coming back to an idea that I must hate America. I don't, of course, yet no matter how much I explain that I object to only to certain specific policies, he still thinks it's all proof that I hate America. It was like having someone constantly insist that you must be gay when you know you're not. We can avoid this kind of crap if we just grant the other party the basic respect of assuming that he knows what his own position is, and if he says it's X, then it's X, and it's not your place to claim he really must have meant Y.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383 |
Nobody's CLINGING to the idea that he hasn't disavowed his belief, all this last several pages has been trying to explain to YOU where the idea came from in the first place while you argue that it never should have been. GawdDAMN you are dense.
Pacific Green '96 Contour LX V6
â??98 GTP, light mods, 14.66/94
Calypso Green '92 Mustang LX coupe, 13.56/101
Crown Autocross Club 1999 Street Tire Champion, 2000/2001/2002 Street Modified Champion
KCR SCCA 2002 Solo II Street Modified Champion
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by MFE:
You clearly have a literary capacity far beyond your cognitive skills or you'd have GOT IT by now that the cross drilling [censored] HURTS HEAT CAPACITY,
Where did I ever suggest it didn't?
Originally posted by MFE:
and what time would that heat capacity be taxed to its highest? Oh, maybe on a long descent, with few cooldown periods? I mean DAMN.
Heat capacity is taxed to its highest on hard stops from high speed. Heat dissipation is taxed to its highest on long downhills. When you're talking about gentle braking continued for an hour, you can't treat the rotor as something that just absorbs heat and gets linearly hotter the longer you brake, as you can in short stops. You have to talk about the equilibrium point where heat flow in = heat flow out. The capacity for heat stored inside the rotor doesn't change that equilibrium point, it only changes the time it takes to reach equilibrium.
Nothing anyone has said is addressing this side of the question, which is why I'm still as in the dark about it as I was six months ago.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
It appears that proper research methodology escapes you. This, too, was discussed. So many factors changed in Hector's example that it cannot be relied upon. The numerous changes explained by Rara ARE IN FACT CHANGES! Small, seemingly insignificant factors, add up to very large problems. If you haven't gotten that concept by now then God help you.
Dude, NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE. That was my point, that someone was trying to make a claim about "this model of rotor" into a claim about "this one feature of the rotor", when all of us knew perfectly well it was not the only difference and never said it was.
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Now I still would like to know whether cross-drilling might be a good idea for long downhill descents. I'm guessing this might be one situation where they actually help, since the problem is heat accumulation over many minutes with no hard braking at any one time, so rate of cooling is more important than thermal mass. That's what I got cross-drilling for, and I still have no idea whether it helped or not.
You lecture me about "research methodology" and then, as soon as I raise a real tech question, it goes completely over your head? Is that what "" means? haha
|
|
|
|
|
