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Joined: Sep 2000
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"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Thanks MFE, lol, excellent summary, except you missed Paul . . . Paul, Ok, if you wish, I will address your points. Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Your list of 14 is very padded, since most of them add up to either "different rotor blank" or "different pad"...
Maybe, but each different rotor and each different pad make up a completely different arrangement of those items, and any single one can have a significant effect on brake performance, pad life, and rotor life. This is why they were all listed, the fact that a particular pad you buy off the shelf has a pre-determined organization of those items makes little difference.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
First of all, you are assuming that the x-drilled rotors must have been used with different kinds of pads than the solid rotors were. But Hector said he changed the rotors and pads multiple times before trying a cross-drilled rotor; it seems likely to me that he would have settled on a preferred pad a couple of changes earlier. Now you could have asked if he used the same pad brand, but nooooooo.
You are correct here, in that I did make an assumption; but I certainly don't believe it unfounded. Loco has recently mentioned his cross-drilled rotors and how great he thinks they are numerous times, and virtualy every single time, he has referred to them along with his "new" Autospecialty heavy duty pads. An assumption was made, but hardly a leap at all.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Second, and more important, you are once again repeathing the charge that "loco attributed ALL of the difference to the cross-drilling". Now this time, how about you answer the question you ignored last time: WHERE did he do that? I see no such claim in anything he wrote!
Hmm, have we been reading the same thread? Maybe I need to recap.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
My cross drilled rotors work tons better than the crappy stock rotors. The C/D are not warped at all.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
. . .but for us poor folk C/D is a good option! With all the abuse I put on my C/D...the stockers would have been garbage!
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
I slam on my stock rotors at higher speeds next thing you know....warped. I slam on my C/D rotors at higher speeds and nothing....they are still on my car.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
All it took to warp my stock rotors was to slam on the brakes at high speed . . . I have done the same to C/D rotors (more than I can count)and nothing.
And From another thread:
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
You are much better off with a quality full face rotor.
Slotted and expecially drilled rotors are just for looks!
You would think so but NO! I have had my Powerstop C/D rotors on for about a year and high speed braking is greatly improved and NO WARPING. Not even much fade on Gingerman! 
And Another thread here:
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
HELL NO! I know this first hand. I have had 2 sets of stock replacements and BOTH warped due to normal street driving. I put a set of crossdrilled and no warping in street driving, road racing, or drag racing.
I think that is more than plenty to show the LoCo is attributing his "fantastic" brakes to the cross-drilling on the rotors. Or at least that is what he is telling the rest of the world . . .
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Knock yourself out, the list still adds up to two factors in practice, or three if you assume the pads must be different.
No, it still adds up to 14 in practice, just because you don't deal with them seperately doesn't mean they aren't seperate things.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
You can't after all, order a rotor with specs like "I'd like it just the same as an OEM rotor, only 1 mm thicker and with a different burnishing procedure." Since these factors are not separable at the parts store, separating them out to inflate your list is just dorky.
Actually, you can to some degree (well except for the burnishing part, because that isn't done until you put the rotors and pads on the car). Though they come in predetermined combinations, kind of like option packages when you order a car. Just because you order the "Power Package" as one item, doesn't mean that power windows and power door locks are two different things. And trust me, if I wanted to sound "dorky by inflating my list" I could increase the one item "friction material composition" to about a hundred seperate items, and I know less about friction material than I do the rest of the brake system . . . Btw, I think I know who took the red pill . . . or at least two of them anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
You know, after re-perusing this thread, I swear I've had this "discussion before, but on a different car part . . . a mass air sensor maybe?
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 17,248
CEG road warrior
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CEG road warrior
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 17,248 |
Originally posted by Rara:
Thanks MFE, lol, excellent summary, except you missed Paul . . .
Paul,
Ok, if you wish, I will address your points.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Your list of 14 is very padded, since most of them add up to either "different rotor blank" or "different pad"...
Maybe, but each different rotor and each different pad make up a completely different arrangement of those items, and any single one can have a significant effect on brake performance, pad life, and rotor life. This is why they were all listed, the fact that a particular pad you buy off the shelf has a pre-determined organization of those items makes little difference.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
First of all, you are assuming that the x-drilled rotors must have been used with different kinds of pads than the solid rotors were. But Hector said he changed the rotors and pads multiple times before trying a cross-drilled rotor; it seems likely to me that he would have settled on a preferred pad a couple of changes earlier. Now you could have asked if he used the same pad brand, but nooooooo.
You are correct here, in that I did make an assumption; but I certainly don't believe it unfounded. Loco has recently mentioned his cross-drilled rotors and how great he thinks they are numerous times, and virtualy every single time, he has referred to them along with his "new" Autospecialty heavy duty pads. An assumption was made, but hardly a leap at all.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Second, and more important, you are once again repeathing the charge that "loco attributed ALL of the difference to the cross-drilling". Now this time, how about you answer the question you ignored last time: WHERE did he do that? I see no such claim in anything he wrote!
Hmm, have we been reading the same thread? Maybe I need to recap.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
My cross drilled rotors work tons better than the crappy stock rotors. The C/D are not warped at all.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
. . .but for us poor folk C/D is a good option! With all the abuse I put on my C/D...the stockers would have been garbage!
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
I slam on my stock rotors at higher speeds next thing you know....warped. I slam on my C/D rotors at higher speeds and nothing....they are still on my car.
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
All it took to warp my stock rotors was to slam on the brakes at high speed . . . I have done the same to C/D rotors (more than I can count)and nothing.
And From another thread:
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
You are much better off with a quality full face rotor.
Slotted and expecially drilled rotors are just for looks!
You would think so but NO! I have had my Powerstop C/D rotors on for about a year and high speed braking is greatly improved and NO WARPING. Not even much fade on Gingerman!
And Another thread here:
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
HELL NO! I know this first hand. I have had 2 sets of stock replacements and BOTH warped due to normal street driving. I put a set of crossdrilled and no warping in street driving, road racing, or drag racing.
I think that is more than plenty to show the LoCo is attributing his "fantastic" brakes to the cross-drilling on the rotors. Or at least that is what he is telling the rest of the world . . .
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Knock yourself out, the list still adds up to two factors in practice, or three if you assume the pads must be different.
No, it still adds up to 14 in practice, just because you don't deal with them seperately doesn't mean they aren't seperate things.
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
You can't after all, order a rotor with specs like "I'd like it just the same as an OEM rotor, only 1 mm thicker and with a different burnishing procedure." Since these factors are not separable at the parts store, separating them out to inflate your list is just dorky.
Actually, you can to some degree (well except for the burnishing part, because that isn't done until you put the rotors and pads on the car). Though they come in predetermined combinations, kind of like option packages when you order a car. Just because you order the "Power Package" as one item, doesn't mean that power windows and power door locks are two different things. And trust me, if I wanted to sound "dorky by inflating my list" I could increase the one item "friction material composition" to about a hundred seperate items, and I know less about friction material than I do the rest of the brake system . . . Btw, I think I know who took the red pill . . . or at least two of them anyway.
I guess I can't have an opinion. I had tried different stock replacement for pads and rotors and ALWAYS the same thing-warping. I got the cross drilled rotors and heavy duty pads and no warping. I never said it wasn't because of the pad material OR rotor material...I just stated that I had a great experience with them (never pointing out one factor...because it is a combination of ALL factors). As you can see I never said that JUST BECAUSE they were cross drilled they were better than non C/D....everyone just assumed that and you know where that gets you. 
Hector
2003 Rally Red Mitsubishi Evolution VIII
257HP/259TQ
2005 Lapis Blue Mazda 6s
RET: 00 Cabernet Red Ford Contour Zetec ATX SUPERCHARGED
160HP/141TQ
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,483 |
Technically speaking,
With the right alloy compound,
C/D rotors would be beneficial.
The right alloy would need a high thermal capacity,
low external thermal conducivity, high internal thermal conductivity, and really high thermal expansion.
Just a thought.
Frank McCoy aka Mod-deth aka Mid Life Crisis aka SVT Doood aka mcgainer is a SCAM ARTIST
Pre98 Zetec - Some Mods
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"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
and really high thermal expansion.
Nope, that alone would make the cracking problem worse.
And Loco, I think I demonstrated very clearly, with your own words that you attributed your improvements to the cross drilling, or at least publicly portrayed it that way.
And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, it does not mean your opinion is right or is even technically feasible, and I think that I, and others, have proven that clearly enough.
Except in very special circumstances, such as a motorcycle, or a race car with extremely large rotors, and cast in holes rather than drilled, cross-drilling your rotors provides little or no benefit to performance at best, makes the rotor significantly more prone to cracking, and if unchecked catastrophic failure, with the only potential benefit being appearance.
But, of course, since you state it is your "opinion" it makes it ok to spread BS, because, as your opinion, it is completely impossible to be wrong. Hmm, maybe my opinion should be that if you smear cream cheese all over the hood of your car, it will create a low pressure effect in front of the car that will pull it along at high speed, drastically improving top speed and fuel mileage. That's my opinion, so I need no technical feasibility to back it, its just true.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149 |
Originally posted by Rara:
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
and really high thermal expansion.
Nope, that alone would make the cracking problem worse.
And Loco, I think I demonstrated very clearly, with your own words that you attributed your improvements to the cross drilling, or at least publicly portrayed it that way.
And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, it does not mean your opinion is right or is even technically feasible, and I think that I, and others, have proven that clearly enough.
Except in very special circumstances, such as a motorcycle, or a race car with extremely large rotors, and cast in holes rather than drilled, cross-drilling your rotors provides little or no benefit to performance at best, makes the rotor significantly more prone to cracking, and if unchecked catastrophic failure, with the only potential benefit being appearance.
But, of course, since you state it is your "opinion" it makes it ok to spread BS, because, as your opinion, it is completely impossible to be wrong. Hmm, maybe my opinion should be that if you smear cream cheese all over the hood of your car, it will create a low pressure effect in front of the car that will pull it along at high speed, drastically improving top speed and fuel mileage. That's my opinion, so I need no technical feasibility to back it, its just true.
Ok Rara  , I can't stay out of this argument any longer. You are completely wrong.  It's not cream cheese. Geez.  It's butter. And if you want to get technical about it a better butter option would be synthetic butter, margarine. 
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867 |
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
I guess I can't have an opinion. I had tried different stock replacement for pads and rotors and ALWAYS the same thing-warping. I got the cross drilled rotors and heavy duty pads and no warping. I never said it wasn't because of the pad material OR rotor material...I just stated that I had a great experience with them (never pointing out one factor...because it is a combination of ALL factors). As you can see I never said that JUST BECAUSE they were cross drilled they were better than non C/D....everyone just assumed that and you know where that gets you.
1) Learn critical thinking.
2) Learn about the scientific method.
From all appearances, it certainly seems that you are attributing the results to the holes. If you weren't then you would say something like, "My stock replacements warped, but my KVR's didn't." Instead, you stress over and over how they are crossdrilled. Language is a funny thing.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but it's a free country, and people are entitled to argue with you. If their "opinion" is backed up by hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge, engineering, racing experience, and sound scientific testing, and yours is not, you will probably lose the argument.
Of course, you could always appeal to Congress. They eat junk science for lunch every day.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Posts: 3,223
"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
Ok Rara , I can't stay out of this argument any longer. You are completely wrong. It's not cream cheese. Geez. It's butter. And if you want to get technical about it a better butter option would be synthetic butter, margarine.
You are correct, the butter, and further synthetic butter, will reduce the drag coefficient more than the cream cheese, and give even better fuel mileage, but the more rough texture of the cream cheese breaks up the boundary layer of the airflow, creating more negative pressure than the butter(s) and therefore an even higher top end speed.
So, both work well, it just depends on what you are after
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by LoCoZ2.0:
I guess I can't have an opinion. I had tried different stock replacement for pads and rotors and ALWAYS the same thing-warping. I got the cross drilled rotors and heavy duty pads and no warping. I never said it wasn't because of the pad material OR rotor material...I just stated that I had a great experience with them (never pointing out one factor...because it is a combination of ALL factors). As you can see I never said that JUST BECAUSE they were cross drilled they were better than non C/D....everyone just assumed that and you know where that gets you.
Ok, one more thing on this one. How do you know they were warping? And were not experiencing excessive DTV (disc thickness variation)? I doubt very very much you would even have a clue as to the difference, or that they are caused by very different things.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,483
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,483 |
Originally posted by Rara:
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
and really high thermal expansion.
Nope, that alone would make the cracking problem worse.
I think not.
One should fully understand thermodynamics before teaching it.
With the proper alloy, a C/D rotor WITH high thermal expansion (and with the other properties I described above as well as a few I didn't describe) would expand into the holes, not outward.
This would only be possible with an alloy that would transfer heat into inner layers of the rotor, where a heat sink is mounted between the 2 sides of the rotor.
(To better understand the statement above; Think of a brake rotor as a stack of 3 pancakes, the top pancake transfers heat to the middle pancake, which inturn transfers heat to the bottom pancake. Finally the bottom pancake transfer heat to the plate. And the plate disipates the heat.)
Frank McCoy aka Mod-deth aka Mid Life Crisis aka SVT Doood aka mcgainer is a SCAM ARTIST
Pre98 Zetec - Some Mods
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