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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
That's like trying to prove that the Raiders had to have won the super bowl, after it's been played.
No, that's like trying to prove the Raiders won the World Series after its been played. The two aren't comparable.
Loco made a comparison after changing many, many factors involved, and then attributed ALL of the changes to a SINGLE factor; a factor which has been proven to be ineffective at improving performance and potentially dangerous by many experts in the brake industry, both OEM and aftermarket. I think it is an excessively flawed comparison. No one doubts Loco's experience, only his interpretation of it.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,653
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,653 |
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
so if drilled rotors are bad? how about just slotted, dem any good? and how much does a full FSVT brake conversion cost (i also have to change drums to discs in rear)? thankz.
^^^^^^^^^^
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
so if drilled rotors are bad? how about just slotted, dem any good? and how much does a full FSVT brake conversion cost (i also have to change drums to discs in rear)? thankz.
^^^^^^^^^^
Slotted is not nearly as bad, though it does still introduce some stress concentration locations. Performance gains are still minimal, except in special circumstances.
On the FSVT stuff, and drums to discs, try searching, both questions have been answered numerous times in the recent past.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,653
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,653 |
but i'm lazy, and i thought most people going to FSVT brakes already had discs in rear, so I figured it may cost me a bit more..... Time for more fsvts to be made and start showing up in junkyards. 
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by Rara:
Loco made a comparison after changing many, many factors involved, and then attributed ALL of the changes to a SINGLE factor;
Where did he do that? I don't remember him doing anything of the kind.
I guess "many, many" is your way of saying "two".
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867 |
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Originally posted by Rara:
Loco made a comparison after changing many, many factors involved, and then attributed ALL of the changes to a SINGLE factor;
Where did he do that? I don't remember him doing anything of the kind.
I guess "many, many" is your way of saying "two".
Solid, OEM? rotors and stock pads to aftermarket pads, rotors, (with holes). That's at least 3 factors that we know of.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
"Absolut Rara."
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"Absolut Rara."
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223 |
Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Originally posted by Rara:
Loco made a comparison after changing many, many factors involved, and then attributed ALL of the changes to a SINGLE factor;
Where did he do that? I don't remember him doing anything of the kind.
I guess "many, many" is your way of saying "two".
Well, lets see what factors were changed.
1. Rotor design
2. Rotor material
3. Rotor manufacturing Process
4. Cross-drilling
5. friction material composition
6. friction coefficient
7. friction material metal content
8. Pad thickness
9. friction material compressibility
10. Pad design (ie slots, grooves, chamfers etc. on the friction material)
11. Pad bonding layer composition
12. Age of compenents being compared (ie old OEM vs. new aftermarket)
13. Usage conditions
14. Pad/rotor burnish procedure/condition
I dunno man, that's 14 off the top of my head. All of which can significntly affect the situation, yet loco attributed ALL of the difference to the cross-drilling. Hardly a valid comparison.
btw, I would think that 14 would qualify as "many, many", but if that's not enough for you I'm sure I could spend a bit more than 30 seconds thinking about them and come up with a few more. I mean, it's not like I do this stuff for a living.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 682 |
Originally posted by Rara:
Well, lets see what factors were changed.
...
I dunno man, that's 14 off the top of my head. All of which can significntly affect the situation, yet loco attributed ALL of the difference to the cross-drilling. Hardly a valid comparison.
Your list of 14 is very padded, since most of them add up to either "different rotor blank" or "different pad"... but that's not what I'm objecting to. First of all, you are assuming that the x-drilled rotors must have been used with different kinds of pads than the solid rotors were. But Hector said he changed the rotors and pads multiple times before trying a cross-drilled rotor; it seems likely to me that he would have settled on a preferred pad a couple of changes earlier. Now you could have asked if he used the same pad brand, but nooooooo.
Second, and more important, you are once again repeathing the charge that "loco attributed ALL of the difference to the cross-drilling". Now this time, how about you answer the question you ignored last time: WHERE did he do that? I see no such claim in anything he wrote!
Originally posted by Rara:
btw, I would think that 14 would qualify as "many, many", but if that's not enough for you I'm sure I could spend a bit more than 30 seconds thinking about them and come up with a few more. I mean, it's not like I do this stuff for a living.
Knock yourself out, the list still adds up to two factors in practice, or three if you assume the pads must be different. You can't after all, order a rotor with specs like "I'd like it just the same as an OEM rotor, only 1 mm thicker and with a different burnishing procedure." Since these factors are not separable at the parts store, separating them out to inflate your list is just dorky.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 383 |
You're missing the point at hand by a country mile, in your effort to emulate Mighty Mouse and save the day. Let me summarize:
Rara: "Cross drilled rotors are no good"
Loco: "My crossdrilled rotors are way better than stock ones"
Rara: "Cross drilled rotors are no good, and here's the solid facts about why (for the thousandth time and you know it)
Loco: Then I must be dumb [ding!] because my stock rotors warped, and my cross drilled ones haven't [so there!]
Rara: "There are a lot of other factors involved; the cross drilling did not make for the improvement, and here's why (for the thousand-and-first time)
Loco: [grasping feverishly at straws in a failed attempt to win this argument in the face of hard facts from brake engineers themselves, one of them active in this thread] The only thing I changed was the rotors and they're better and they haven't warpd" [DOUBLE so there!!]
Now...here's the pattern in full peacock display. Loco is wrong, but he will not admit it. Physics are different where he lives.
Several more citations and examples are given, by brake engineers and mere mortals with a grasp of how things work, which show this display to be the mockery that it is, but he ignores it because He Can't Bear to Lose. Must...hang...on....to tenuous...position...
Loco: "Oh well" [la la la la la I can't hear you la la la la]
And then you come along to save the day, taking this EXPERIENCE (smelling very cooked up in an effort to win an argument) over "theories and generalities" LOL...you really appeared smarter than that at first. So in the immortal words of Loco..."oh well".
Read the links that people have taken the time to post for your benefit and see if they sound like "generalities and theories".
Failing that...wanna buy a strut tower brace? Your car will corner flatter! Ask Loco 
In all fairness to Loco, I may have confused him with someone else when I made the comment about the pattern. Truth be told, I probably confused him with any number of people here who exhibit that pattern. It's not hard to spot, but it's hard to keep everyone straight.
Pacific Green '96 Contour LX V6
â??98 GTP, light mods, 14.66/94
Calypso Green '92 Mustang LX coupe, 13.56/101
Crown Autocross Club 1999 Street Tire Champion, 2000/2001/2002 Street Modified Champion
KCR SCCA 2002 Solo II Street Modified Champion
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Keep your comments to yourself. 
.