Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Dear friend, we had established in my previous post that "I suggested" that we should have left Hussein in power. So argueing how to remove him is a waste of both of our time.



Though you mention that previously there were grounds for going further into Iraq in '91. Care to elaborate, as I'd be interested as hell in hearing a coherent reason we should have left him in power today...

Sorry, but all roads lead to Baghdad and therefore, through Hussein. I sincerely hate to see anyone "suggesting" the upkeep of such a tyrant, as history will prove him to be among some of the worst that the 20th century has birthed. Being wrong 20 years ago (which the US was in the fashion of support it gave Hussein) means that allowing his continued existance on the backs of the Iraqi people is STILL wrong today.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Correct, the Taliban of Afghanistan only served as a threat to countries that they were able to attack; Uzbekistan for example. It would not be advantageous nor possible for them to create conflict with China, therefore they would not be a threat to China.



...care to talk about the terrorists they have trained and EXPORTED to other countries, thorugh Bin Laden? Care to discuss their role in Chechnya or in other conflicts where Muslims were fighting? Care to talk about the terrorist training camps that Bin Laden fouded in Afghanistan (Oruzgan, Daraunta, etc., etc.; check this link for a rather in-depth list). Mullah Ommar and Bin Laden were rather close, or are you forgetting that we practically begged the Taliban government to turn Bin Laden over and were refused?

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
As you can see above, the Taliban of Afghanistan did not, nor ever, serve as a threat to the United States.



Try again, and this time with a straight face, as the day we landed troops in Saudi Arabia at the REQUEST of the Saudi government, Bin Laden was known to have had it out for the US. It's difficult, if not impossible to untie Bin Laden from Afghanistan, given his links, contacts and past there.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Therefore a pre-emptive strike on the Taliban of Afghanistan would not have been justifiable under the terms that the Taliban of Afghanistan posed a threat to the United States.



If the CIA hadn't of been crippled by a certain administration back in the '90s and the insistance that our operatives not associate with any individuals of known criminal element, we would have had 10x the amount of valid intelligence available to us, as it's usually the "dirty" folks that are more in the know. I will give you even odds on whether it would have been properly put together, though.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
If Iraq did not serve as a military threat than why did we attack their military? Why was the basis that Iraq served as a threat used? Were they an economic threat?



...you're kidding, right? Hussein knows we are position ourselves to come after him, he spouts anti-Western rhetoric, gets his troops roused up and places then squarely in front of us, and you're actually asking why we attacked their military when we were going in to eliminate his chemical/biochemical capabilities? UN Resolution 1441 (which the UN didn't have the balls to enforce, I might add) clearly states that Hussein was to give a "complete and accurate" account of WMD and is something that he didn't do by any STRETCH of the imagination.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Time for what? Time to not militarily threaten us?

Question: Is the only threat that you understand would be something in the form of a tank rolling towards you, a missle landing on your house, or someone shooting an automatic weapon towards you, or would you be willing to admit that planes flying into buildings, chemical attacks arranged through 3rd parties and uranium "dirty bombs" could also constitute as a "terrorist" threat? I only ask because I'm getting the impression that if it's not in uniform and isn't shouting nationalistic slogans while riding on top of a tank or APC, you don't consider it a threat...

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
I realize that your main point is that Iraq and there WMD posed a threat to the US.
1. Iraq had no means of attacking the United States with WMD. They simply had nothing able to deliver them militarily.



Jet fuel and people in planes wasn't considered a WMD until a few years ago, either. I'm sure Iraq has had no capability of moving weapons across their borders, either, perhaps to those that ARE in the position of using weaponized material against our allies and ourselves...

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
2. Iraq is going to go through all this trouble to acquire a WMD and then just give it away to some fundamentalist who does not even support Iraq?



"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

-Arab Proverb

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
I can see where the Taliban of Afghanistan, with their strict Muslim code, could be seen as an ideal government to the Islamic fundamentalists, but none of them could support the dictatorship that Saddam had going. Saddam would know this.



Again, enemies with a common percieved antagonist do strange things and will put aside differences and grievances to ensure that they may survive to settle the lesser of the two differences. I'm not saying that there is a clear case of this now, but it doesn't take a genuis to figure out that sooner or later the mounting international and US pressure on terrorism and those that use it will force those remaining to pool resources and combine efforts were appropriate to ensure survival and some level of effectiveness in their efforts...

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
3. Islamic fundamentalists are going to go through all this trouble to acquire a WMD from a country so closely monitored?



Yeah, Syria has had a HELL of a time getting things across the border...

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
I have a hard time believing they can acquire so many weapons from the old USSR and Russia, but not WMD. And that they are unable to acquire WMD from any of the many other countries and organizations in the world.



One less is one less to worry about.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
4. Iraq would not attack the United States for the same reason Iran does not. For the same reason China does not. Because it would bring about their own destruction. The means of attacking would not matter, if Iraq gave a fundamentalist (which we have established they would not) a WMD, it would be no different than Saddam launching one at the United States (which he could not)...the same end would await Iraq.



Iraq could definitely supply the material to parties that ultimately would have no clue and no care as to where the material came from...

...but I'm sure they wouldn't do this, as Hussein has no reason nor motive.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
5. The only situation where Iraq would use WMD was if there own destruction was imminent regardless of whether or not they used them. This was the case in the war, and still they did not use them. WMD simply do not pose a threat if they are not, nor ever will be, used.



I've read that most likely the only one that would have been able to give the order for use would have been Hussein himself. I'm surprised as anyone by the lack of use, though if we did get him (and not one of his doubles) before he could give the order...

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
A key point of mine is that in this world, the term "threat" is all relative.



It depends on the institution that constitutes the threat. It it were Andorra that we were talking about here, I'm inclined to agree. Iraq? No way in hell.

Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Any nation with a bullet that is not the United States of America can be considered a threat to the United States. I believe Saddam would rather have dozens of palaces, control of an entire country, and millions of dollars; then to bring about his own demise (if he even could).



Then WHY didn't he simply turn over what the UN and the US requested of him when he KNEW he had the chance?

WHY?

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