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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
I get the distinct feeling every time i read one of Giovanni's posts that hes more and more just another liberal who would like nothing better than to crucify the countrys leadership, past and present, rather than allow people to right past wrongs made in error. A member, no doubt, of the same party constantly lobying for more government involvment in everything... go figure.  
if Ignorance = Bliss
Giavonni must be really happy too!
My name is Richard. I was a Contouraholic.
NOW: '02 Mazda B3000 Dual Sport, Black
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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So I can't join the circle jerk? 
-Giovanni
One turbocharger. Two intercoolers. All love.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 682
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
So I can't join the circle jerk?
Sure you can. Since we are all crazy about helping people, I got some Socialist reforms I'd like to suggest. We could start with that 'Iron Rice Bowl' that China has. 
98.5 Contour SVT
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country"
--US President George W Bush
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
So I can't join the circle jerk?
Feel free to blast away at most certainly anything I rant about here. It keeps me on my toes and honest.
Just be aware that I blast back. 
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by JaTo:
...and your point is?
We played an IMPORTANT, VITAL, and NECESSARY part in the development of their programs, yet a paper addressing their programs has no mention of us? Sigh.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Should I refer to countless other mentionings of mine on US shipments of chemical and biological weapons/supplies in the '80s under the Regan administration? It's shameful, it was a HUGE mistake and it's disgusting. Times, alliances, politics and THREATS have changed since then. Those that don't understand this and adjust to this fact will be left exposed to ALL sorts of grief.
Iraq was not a threat then, and they were not a threat now. Hindsight may be 20/20, but I was saying this before we too easily took their country, and before they did not use WMD, not even to defend their very own lives. The war shows how large a threat Iraq truly poised.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Would you also care to include France, Spain, China, England, Germany, Russia and others on your hit list, or since this is "bash the US" day, are we going to convienently leave them out of this mix?
If you will take time to reread my statement, nowhere will you see any sole mention of the US. Not only was I referring to the US, but also to countries like Germany who also supplied Iraq (only because we allowed them to of course). You assumed what you wanted to.
Originally posted by JaTo:
At least we are taking some measure of RESPONSIBILITY for our past actions. One of the main goals of ours is chemical/biological disarmament or Iraq. The US and England have stepped up to the plate to do this, and I think it's only appropritate that the countries that ARMED the regime with this stuff be the one's to pay the price to take it back and ensure that as little as possible is left over there. If anyone should go under the sword, it's the countries that have sat this one out that supplied Hussein...
And one of my main points is why is this one of our goals all of a sudden? They have had no significant development in any of their programs, in fact they were weaker than when it was not one of our main goals.
Originally posted by JaTo:
For the nth time, we've got blood on our hands. Need I use bold to get this point across?  I've never said our Middle-Eastern meddling has been a rousing success (compared to Russia, yes, but that's another topic). Are you suggesting that we never try to wipe the blood off; simply keep things at the status-quo to justify a self-centered notion that we screwed up and we have to live with it regardless of the potential future consequences?
It is difficult to wipe blood off with blood. It is amazing to me how you can tell me how poor our "Middle-Eastern meddling" has been and then suggest we meddle even more. I simply believe the long term consequences of this action will cause more negative effects than if the war had never happened. I suppose we will see, and discover how it will "pan out, one way or the other."
Originally posted by JaTo:
Need I remind you 20 years ago our concerns were VERY different than they are today? Care to pick up a newspaper and check out who was running things in the Kremlin during that time and that our MAIN concern was the USSR and how it was trying to gain toeholds in the Middle-East, something that we didn't want to happen at any cost?
Again you assume I am attacking our decisions in the 1980s, when in fact I have offered no opinion on them. Reread. The only decision I am attacking is that of this current administration. Whether or not it is worth argueing about when the mistake, I mean war, has already been made is another matter.
Originally posted by JaTo:
In short, don't push your ignorance or blindness of history at me and hide it under a blanket-statement of hypocracy. We have used a number of countries as a means to an end and it HAS given us black-eyes at times. Some of what we have done has been rather distateful; some has been downright disgusting. Most all of it at the time was considered very necessary. I'm not going to argue about the validity of our actions in arming Iraq with what we did in the '80s as there's no excuse for what we did.
Again, reread.
Originally posted by JaTo:
If we don't care, why in the hell are we over there? Why are we handing out food to the civilian population? Why are we going to help rebuild their infrastructure? Why have we been feeding Iraqi prisioners? Why have we been operating on wounded Republican Guard troops? Why are 4 million Iraqi exiles ecstatic that Hussein and his regime have been toppled? If you DARE try and say oil, why didn't we waltz in 12 years ago when we had close to a half-million military personel in the area, which is more than what we started with this time around?
We are handing out food to the civilian population and feeding Iraqi prisoners because food keeps hungry people in line. Serious question, but I am wondering where this food comes from? We are going to help rebuild their infrastructure because WE are rebuilding their infrastructure. We are doing all of this because of there geographical location and certain resources that location may bring. Am I saying there is anything wrong with that? No, but that is why we are doing it. 4 million Iraqi exiles are ecstatic that the regime has been toppled because they are exiles. We did not waltz in 12 years ago because there did not exist an American backlash that would support such an action.
Originally posted by JaTo:
We aren't saints in this, but this administration and the military under it's control is FAR away from being the careless, heartless pricks that you are so eager to paint them out to be...
I do not doubt the sincerenity of our soldiers.
-Giovanni
One turbocharger. Two intercoolers. All love.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Feel free to blast away at most certainly anything I rant about here. It keeps me on my toes and honest.
Just be aware that I blast back.
It was not directed at you.
-Giovanni
One turbocharger. Two intercoolers. All love.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
And now people begin to stand and the applause intensifies..
Beads of sweat appear on Liberals foreheads as they shake in disgust..
Wow you're a wierdo.
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
I get the distinct feeling every time i read one of Giovanni's posts that hes more and more just another liberal who would like nothing better than to crucify the countrys leadership, past and present, rather than allow people to right past wrongs made in error. A member, no doubt, of the same party constantly lobying for more government involvment in everything... go figure.
Do not dare lump me with the rest of you one-sided bipartisan lumps. You know my opinion on one political issue out of the millions upon millions that exist. I feel pity if you are only able to see in black and white.
-Giovanni
One turbocharger. Two intercoolers. All love.
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Iraq was not a threat then, and they were not a threat now. Hindsight may be 20/20, but I was saying this before we too easily took their country, and before they did not use WMD, not even to defend their very own lives. The war shows how large a threat Iraq truly poised.
There are several significant errors in logic in this post but I want to highlight this one.
You ASSUME that WE (I will not go there now) "too easily took their country" that this is because they COULD NOT have fought back harder..and were therefore not a threat. Time after time, we found large stashs of weapons, empty uniforms, abandoned military hardware. Entire divisions vanished into thin air. No barrier defenses, no coordinated attacks, only sporatic pockets of resistance and suicide attacks...WHY? Perhaps, just perhaps the administration was RIGHT (yes, they predicted this..while cogncent of the risks)? That the army, even the republican guard was NOT so loyal to Sadam as he thought. It seems clear to me that thus far (and its far from over) it was not a lack of capability that Iraq lacked but a lack of will to fight. And given the fact that historically, most countries fight to the death if INVADED "to defend their very own lives" as you say, doesnt this suggest that maybe the general military sentiment was that we were not invading. That we were not threatening their lives...Liberating perhaps??
And no WMD used..does that mean they do not exist?? You really are not suggesting that, because that what you imply by your choice of words. You know of course we have dropped 100s of 1000s of leaflets saying in effect...put down your weapons & go home and you will be free, fight and you may die, BUT>>>USE WMD and we will hunt you down, try you as war criminals, and EXECUTE YOU. Why would a general who knew this follow Sadam's order and release WMD??? It would be suicide. If the general felt that the regime was failing as we raced toward Baghdad, that the risk of Sadam shoting him might actually be lower than the risk of us finding him. Do you not see this as plausible, even highly plausible. I have no doubt Sadam gave orders to use WMD (if he was able to), I have BIG doubts that many would be inclined to carry them out at the best time (when we encircled Bahgdad). Certainly plenty of atropine & chemical protection gear was found in position to be used as if WMD was the plan...Will we ever know for sure, I think so...
BTW, keep your TV tuned. The time we are most likely to start finding WMD is when the IRAQI PEOPLE, who really are the only ones who KNOW where stuff is hidden, believe that the regime is REALLY GONE. And that time is fast approaching.
So, what have we got
Will we win convincingly....yes
Will most Iraqi rejoice in being libertated...yes
Will we find WMD....you bettcha
Willwe find terrorist training camps...heck yes
Did we have the right to do this ....of course, the UN said we could (when they did not think we would/could NO SERIOUSLY...they lost a war to us and reniged on surrender terms, which is a no-no.
These are a given...
Will this make Liberals happy..no, because (insert lame reason).
Will this make other Arab nations happy (well, no. ANY DESPOT RULER KNOWS FULL WELL THAT TYRANNY CANNOT WITHSTAND LARGE SCALE EXPOSURE TO DEMOCRACY. People see happy peopl in other countries = kill despot ruler. So no matter what REALLY happens, the GOVERMENT CONTROLLED Arab media will not/can not allow what really happened in Iraq to be portrayed accurately, any more than it can allow an accurate potrayal of America in general. Like sunlight hitting a Vampire..poof!
Will this make France happy...well, who gives a crap!
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Another thundering round of applause starts
My name is Richard. I was a Contouraholic.
NOW: '02 Mazda B3000 Dual Sport, Black
BEFORE: '99 Contour SE Sport
Duratec ATX Spruce Green
PIAA 510's, Foglight MOD, K&N Drop-in
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Ausgedient the Ninja:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
And now people begin to stand and the applause intensifies..
Beads of sweat appear on Liberals foreheads as they shake in disgust..
Wow you're a wierdo.
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
I get the distinct feeling every time i read one of Giovanni's posts that hes more and more just another liberal who would like nothing better than to crucify the countrys leadership, past and present, rather than allow people to right past wrongs made in error. A member, no doubt, of the same party constantly lobying for more government involvment in everything... go figure.
Do not dare lump me with the rest of you one-sided bipartisan lumps. You know my opinion on one political issue out of the millions upon millions that exist. I feel pity if you are only able to see in black and white.
hey lumpy, i've seen you standing left of frickin left in every political debate on these forums as far as i can remember. Lump. 
-Matt
"Pain heals, chicks dig scars, and glory lasts forever!"
will do/pay just about anything for the following parts:
CF sunroof glass replacement
OEM CF trunk
Non OEM style cf or fiberglass hood not the cf1 design
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