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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Our constitution was written by and with the input of a large number of very religious and very pious individuals. These people grew up in an America that was largely settled by Christians for the purpose of Christian worship. (The Puritans came to New England, the Quakers to PA, etc.) These people knew that they were putting together possibly the most important document in the history of our nation and in all likelihood in the history of the modern world.
With this in mind please peruse a copy of your constitution and see how many references our very pious and religious founding fathers made to "God", "Jesus", or to "Christianity".

Was this just an oversight? Did they merely forget to add the references to God and Jesus?

The only reference to "religion" in the entire constitution is in the first amendment which obviously does not constitute an endorsement of Christianity or any other religion. Quite the opposite. (Utilizing Christian values, principles or even the protestant work ethic is different from endorsing the religion itself).




Lack of endorsement in the Constitution still does NOT change the fact that our laws, traditions and institutions are HEAVILY influenced by Christian doctrine. It is true that it was designed to be a document for all times and that it doesn't mention by name a specific deity. Last time I checked, the pledge wasn't a part of the Constitution, nor does it govern any aspect of our rights as citizens...


Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
The phrase "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by Federal statute in 1954. California law requires that schools conduct a patriotic exercise at the beginning of each school day and specifically states that The Pledge of Allegiance shall be acceptable. Public school systems and their teachers are regulated and funded by the various states in which they are located. That is why the actions of a public school teacher in leading the Pledge of Allegiance is considered to be a state action.




That's really stretching the case thin, as something that is deemed acceptable doesn't exclude other activities such as a simple salute, singing the Star Spangled Banner, reciting the Gettysburg Address, etc. It sounds like it is being used as an example of a patriotic excercise here, not MANDATED by law that it be done as an excercise.

Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I don't think the problem with the phrase "Under God" is that it endorses Christianity - the problem is that it endorses religion - specifically a monotheistic religion. This leaves out people with many beliefs including atheists, many agnostics, followers of many native American religions, animists, followers of the ancient Greek, Roman, Celtic, Druidic or Viking religions etc and anyone who has not yet decided upon a religion.




I know this is going to sound trite, but tough toenails. If Buddhists came over to seek to practice their own religion the way the deemed just and appropriate in the 17th century and the values of these people were refined to represent their belief and doctrine, things would very likely be different.

Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Of course there is no legal penalty for not reciting the pledge, except that it is not fair to require kids as young as 4 years old to, on a daily basis, in front of their peers and role models, to publicly express their disbeleif in what almost everyone else in the classroom accepts as the ultimate truth.




What certain people consider fair and what's legally allowed under the Constitution are two entirely different topics. I'm sure it's uncomfortable for some individuals to sit out the pledge in front of their classmates. Since when does the government dictate "comfort"?


Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Perhaps you have forgotten what it was like to be 4 years old or perhaps you were not an average 4 years old. The desire to conform in that age group is extremely extremely powerful. Kids that age don't like to be different and don't like to be singled out as being different. I can remember when I was in kindergarten, how kids would be taunted mercilessly if they didn't wear the right clothes, have the right haircut or even the right lunch box.




I remember those days quote well, as I was one of those tormented, which lasted in one form or another throughout high school. Being intelligent AND atheletic apparently was a no-no in the redneck society where I hailed from. You were either one or the other, or so the common logic seemed to go. I never blamed my lack of conformity on the government. Why would people blame their situations on a tradition that is commonly practiced? Is it to the point to where we have to coddle EVERY belief in our actions and intentions at the expense of the beliefs and conviction of the majority?

Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Please read the opinion of the Ninth Circuit and tell me exactly where you think they went wrong. I think their decision was courageous but that it was also a no-brainer.




Time permitting, PM me with a link to it so I can read it, or please post it here.


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Well, the Constitutional grounds is not the only way I want to restore the Pledge.

I also tell people that if they insist on not worrying of other peoples comfort when it's not constitutionally necessary, that there is no reason why I or anyone else should not return the favor.

There is NO reason for me to shut up, no matter how offensive my beliefs might be. No matter how many kids might be around.


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UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
MICHAEL A. NEWDOW, Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
US CONGRESS; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA; GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States; STATE OF CALIFORNIA; ELK GROVE UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT; DAVID W. GORDON, Superintendent EGUSD; SACRAMENTO CITY UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT; JIM SWEENEY, Superintendent SCUSD, Defendants-Appellees.

Filed June 26, 2002
Opinion by Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, joined by Stephen Reinhardt, Circuit Judge

OPINION

GOODWIN, Circuit Judge:

Michael Newdow appeals a judgment dismissing his challenge to the constitutionality of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. Newdow argues that the addition of these words by a 1954 federal statute to the previous version of the Pledge of Allegiance (which made no reference to God) and the daily recitation in the classroom of the Pledge of Allegiance, with the added words included, by his daughter's public school teacher are violations of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

FACTUAL AND PROCEDURAL BACKGROUND

Newdow is an atheist whose daughter attends public elementary school in the Elk Grove Unified School District ("EGUSD") in California. In accordance with state law and a school district rule, EGUSD teachers begin each school day by leading their students in a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance ("the Pledge"). The California Education Code requires that public schools begin each school day with "appropriate patriotic exercises" and that "[t]he giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy" this requirement. Cal. Educ. Code # 52720 (1989) (hereinafter "California statute"). To implement the California statute, the school district that Newdow's daughter attends has promulgated a policy that states, in pertinent part: "Each elementary school class [shall] recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag once each day."

The classmates of Newdow's daughter in the EGUSD are led by their teacher in reciting the Pledge codified in federal law. On June 22, 1942, Congress first codified the Pledge as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Pub. L. No. 623, Ch. 435, # 7, 56 Stat. 380 (1942) (codified at 36 U.S.C. # 1972). On June 14, 1954, Congress amended Section 1972 to add the words "under God" after the word "Nation." Pub. L. No. 396, Ch. 297, 68 Stat. 249 (1954) ("1954 Act"). The Pledge is currently codified as "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." 4 U.S.C. # 4 (1998) (Title 36 was revised and recodified by Pub. L. No. 105-225, # 2(a), 112 Stat. 1494 (1998). Section 172 was abolished, and the Pledge is now found in Title 4.)

Newdow does not allege that his daughter's teacher or school district requires his daughter to participate in reciting the Pledge. Rather, he claims that his daughter is injured when she is compelled to "watch and listen as her state-employed teacher in her state-run school leads her classmates in a ritual proclaiming that there is a God, and that our's [sic] is 'one nation under God.' "

Newdow's complaint in the district court challenged the constitutionality, under the First Amendment, of the 1954 Act, the California statute, and the school district's policy requiring teachers to lead willing students in recitation of the Pledge. He sought declaratory and injunctive relief, but did not seek damages.

The school districts and their superintendents (collectively, "school district defendants") filed a Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim. Magistrate Judge Peter A. Nowinski held a hearing at which the school district defendants requested that the court rule only on the constitutionality of the Pledge, and defer any ruling on sovereign immunity. The United States Congress, the United States, and the President of the United States (collectively, "the federal defendants") joined in the motion to dismiss filed by the school district defendants. The magistrate judge reported findings and a recommendation; District Judge Edward J. Schwartz approved the recommendation and entered a judgment of dismissal. This appeal followed. . . .

DISCUSSION

. . . . [4] In the context of the Pledge, the statement that the United States is a nation "under God" is an endorsement of religion. It is a profession of a religious belief, namely, a belief in monotheism. The recitation that ours is a nation "under God" is not a mere acknowledgment that many Americans believe in a deity. Nor is it merely descriptive of the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic. Rather, the phrase "one nation under God" in the context of the Pledge is normative. To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and--since 1954--monotheism. The text of the official Pledge, codified in federal law, impermissibly takes a position with respect to the purely religious question of the existence and identity of God. A profession that we are a nation "under God" is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation "under Jesus," a nation "under Vishnu," a nation "under Zeus," or a nation "under no god," because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion. "[T]he government must pursue a course of complete neutrality toward religion." Wallace, 472 U.S. at 60. Furthermore, the school district's practice of teacher-led recitation of the Pledge aims to inculcate in students a respect for the ideals set forth in the Pledge, and thus amounts to state endorsement of these ideals. Although students cannot be forced to participate in recitation of the Pledge, the school district is nonetheless conveying a message of state endorsement of a religious belief when it requires public school teachers to recite, and lead the recitation of, the current form of the Pledge.

The Supreme Court recognized the normative and ideological nature of the Pledge in Barnette, 319 U.S. 624. There, the Court held unconstitutional a school district's wartime policy of punishing students who refused to recite the Pledge and salute the flag. Id. at 642. The Court noted that the school district was compelling the students "to declare a belief," id. at 631, and "requir[ing] the individual to communicate by word and sign his acceptance of the political ideas [the flag] . . . bespeaks," id. at 633. "[T]he compulsory flag salute and pledge requires affirmation of a belief and an attitude of mind." Id. The Court emphasized that the political concepts articulated in the Pledge [Barnette was decided before "under God" was added, and thus the Court's discussion was limited to the political ideals contained in the Pledge] were idealistic, not descriptive: " '[L]iberty and justice for all,' if it must be accepted as descriptive of the present order rather than an ideal, might to some seem an overstatement." Id. at 634 n.14. The Court concluded that: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." Id. at 642.

[5] The Pledge, as currently codified, is an impermissible government endorsement of religion because it sends a message to unbelievers "that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community." Lynch, 465 U.S. at 688 (O'Connor, J., concurring). Justice Kennedy, in his dissent in Allegheny, agreed:

[B]y statute, the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag describes the United States as 'one nation under God.' To be sure, no one is obligated to recite this phrase, . . . but it borders on sophistry to suggest that the reasonable atheist would not feel less than a full member of the political community every time his fellow Americans recited, as part of their expression of patriotism and love for country, a phrase he believed to be false.
Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 672 (Kennedy, J., dissenting). Consequently, the policy and the Act fail the endorsement test.

[6] Similarly, the policy and the Act fail the coercion test. Just as in Lee, the policy and the Act place students in the untenable position of choosing between participating in an exercise with religious content or protesting. As the Court observed with respect to the graduation prayer in that case: "What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy." Lee, 505 U.S. at 592. Although the defendants argue that the religious content of "one nation under God" is minimal, to an atheist or a believer in certain non-Judeo-Christian religions or philosophies, it may reasonably appear to be an attempt to enforce a "religious orthodoxy" of monotheism, and is therefore impermissible. The coercive effect of this policy is particularly pronounced in the school setting given the age and impressionability of schoolchildren, and their understanding that they are required to adhere to the norms set by their school, their teacher and their fellow students. Furthermore, under Lee, the fact that students are not required to participate is no basis for distinguishing Barnette from the case at bar because, even without a recitation requirement for each child, the mere fact that a pupil is required to listen every day to the statement "one nation under God" has a coercive effect. The coercive effect of the Act is apparent from its context and legislative history, which indicate that the Act was designed to result in the daily recitation of the words "under God" in school classrooms. President Eisenhower, during the Act's signing ceremony, stated: "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." 100 Cong. Rec. 8618 (1954) (statement of Sen. Ferguson incorporating signing statement of President Eisenhower). Therefore, the policy and the Act fail the coercion test.

Finally we turn to the Lemon test, the first prong of which asks if the challenged policy has a secular purpose. Historically, the primary purpose of the 1954 Act was to advance religion, in conflict with the first prong of the Lemon test. The federal defendants "do not dispute that the words 'under God' were intended" "to recognize a Supreme Being," at a time when the government was publicly inveighing against atheistic communism. Nonetheless, the federal defendants argue that the Pledge must be considered as a whole when assessing whether it has a secular purpose. They claim that the Pledge has the secular purpose of "solemnizing public occasions, expressing confidence in the future, and encouraging the recognition of what is worthy of appreciation in society." Lynch, 465 U.S. at 693.

The flaw in defendants' argument is that it looks at the text of the Pledge "as a whole," and glosses over the 1954 Act. The problem with this approach is apparent when one considers the Court's analysis in Wallace. There, the Court struck down Alabama's statute mandating a moment of silence for "meditation or voluntary prayer" not because the final version "as a whole" lacked a primary secular purpose, but because the state legislature had amended the statute specifically and solely to add the words "or voluntary prayer." 472 U.S. at 59-60.

[7] By analogy to Wallace, we apply the purpose prong of the Lemon test to the amendment that added the words "under God" to the Pledge, not to the Pledge in its final version. As was the case with the amendment to the Alabama statute in Wallace, the legislative history of the 1954 Act reveals that the Act's sole purpose was to advance religion, in order to differentiate the United States from nations under communist rule. "[T]he First Amendment requires that a statute must be invalidated if it is entirely motivated by a purpose to advance religion." Id. at 56 (citations omitted) (applying the Lemon test). As the legislative history of the 1954 Act sets forth:

At this moment of our history the principles underlying our American Government and the American way of life are under attack by a system whose philosophy is at direct odds with our own. Our American Government is founded on the concept of the individuality and the dignity of the human being. Underlying this concept is the belief that the human person is important because he was created by God and endowed by Him with certain inalienable rights which no civil authority may usurp. The inclusion of God in our pledge therefore would further acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon the moral directions of the Creator. At the same time it would serve to deny the atheistic and materialistic concepts of communism with its attendant subservience of the individual.
H.R. Rep. No. 83-1693, at 1-2 (1954), reprinted in 1954 U.S.C.C.A.N. 2339, 2340. This language reveals that the purpose of the 1954 Act was to take a position on the question of theism, namely, to support the existence and moral authority of God, while "deny[ing] . . . atheistic and materialistic concepts." Id. Such a purpose runs counter to the Establishment Clause, which prohibits the government's endorsement or advancement not only of one particular religion at the expense of other religions, but also of religion at the expense of atheism.

[T]he Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all. This conclusion derives support not only from the interest in respecting the individual's freedom of conscience, but also from the conviction that religious beliefs worthy of respect are the product of a free and voluntary choice by the faithful, and from recognition of the fact that the political interest in forestalling intolerance extends beyond intolerance among Christian sects--or even intolerance among "religions"--to encompass intolerance of the disbeliever and the uncertain.
Wallace, 472 U.S. at 52-54.

[8] In language that attempts to prevent future constitutional challenges, the sponsors of the 1954 Act expressly disclaimed a religious purpose. "This is not an act establishing a religion . . . . A distinction must be made between the existence of a religion as an institution and a belief in the sovereignty of God. The phrase 'under God' recognizes only the guidance of God in our national affairs." H.R. Rep. No. 83-1693, at 3 (1954), reprinted in 1954 U.S.C.C.A.N. 2339, 2341-42. This alleged distinction is irrelevant for constitutional purposes. The Act's affirmation of "a belief in the sovereignty of God" and its recognition of "the guidance of God" are endorsements by the government of religious beliefs. The Establishment Clause is not limited to "religion as an institution"; this is clear from cases such as Santa Fe, where the Court struck down student-initiated and student-led prayer at high school football games. 530 U.S. 310-16. The Establishment Clause guards not only against the establishment of "religion as an institution," but also against the endorsement of religious ideology by the government. Because the Act fails the purpose prong of Lemon, we need not examine the other prongs. Lemon, 403 U.S. at 612-14.

[9] Similarly, the school district policy also fails the Lemon test. Although it survives the first prong of Lemon because, as even Newdow concedes, the school district had the secular purpose of fostering patriotism in enacting the policy, the policy fails the second prong. As explained by this court in Kreisner v. City of San Diego, 1 F. 3d 775, 782 (9th Cir. 1993), and by the Supreme Court in School District of Grand Rapids v. Ball, 473 U.S. 373, 390 (1985), the second Lemon prong asks whether the challenged government action is sufficiently likely to be perceived by adherents of the controlling denominations as an endorsement, and by the nonadherents as a disapproval, of their individual religious choices." Ball, 473 U.S. at 390. Given the age and impressionability of schoolchildren, as discussed above, particularly within the confined environment of the classroom, the policy is highly likely to convey an impermissible message of endorsement to some and disapproval to others of their beliefs regarding the existence of a monotheistic God. Therefore the policy fails the effects prong of Lemon, and fails the Lemon test. In sum, both the policy and the Act fail the Lemon test as well as the endorsement and coercion tests.

[10] In conclusion, we hold that (1) the 1954 Act adding the words "under God" to the Pledge, and (2) EGUSD's policy and practice of teacher-led recitation of the Pledge, with the added words included, violate the Establishment Clause. The judgment of dismissal is vacated with respect to these two claims, and the cause is remanded for further proceedings consistent with our holding. Plaintiff is to recover costs on this appeal.

REVERSED AND REMANDED.


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Voluntary?

Quote:

ACLU Concerned With School Pledge Policy
Wed Apr 2, 5:27 PM ET
Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

BELLINGHAM, Mass. - Civil libertarians are admonishing a school for telling parents when their children don't stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.



"It seems to me a form of harassment," Ron Madnick, director of the Worcester chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites), said Wednesday.

Madnick said some students at Bellingham High School have been taken out of class and sent to the principal's office for refusing to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance as a way of protesting the war in Iraq (news - web sites). He sent a letter to superintendent T.C. Mattocks on Wednesday and is waiting for a response.

Mattocks said students were not called out of class, but acknowledged that school officials notify parents of students who don't stand for the pledge.

Refusing to stand during the ceremony does not violate a school rule, Mattocks said. But he said students are expected to stand and to also obey a moment of silence every morning.

"They are not disciplined for not standing," Mattocks said. "But it's the school's responsibility to communicate with parents about a student's behavior."

Madnick said he's not sure how many students have refused to stand for the pledge and doesn't know how old they are. He said he has not spoken with the students.




http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030402/ap_on_re_us/pledge_flap_1

Does it really matter whether it's the Federal government, local, or individual that's kicking you? It hurts regardless.


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Originally posted by JaTo:

Lack of endorsement in the Constitution still does NOT change the fact that our laws, traditions and institutions are HEAVILY influenced by Christian doctrine.






Isn't it possible to believe in our laws, traditions and institutions without believing in God? The only objection the Ninth Circuit had to the entire pledge was the inclusion of "Under God".


Originally posted by JaTo:
...Last time I checked, the pledge wasn't a part of the Constitution, nor does it govern any aspect of our rights as citizens...






??? I don't really understand your point here. If the pledge was a part of our constitution, it could not be unconstitutional and it would be fine for schools to lead children in reciting it.


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Ok, I admit I read the whole 9th Circuit opinion that you posted, and again I came up with the same point. The simple fact that;

1. It is an opinion, in fact many. I understand that our judicial system is all about opinions, so it is hard to disagree. However, when the Supreme Court takes this case, and again overturns it, will you believe that opinion?

2. The lawsuit was frivilous in the first place. First of all, Dr Newdow is a career protester. He has had many, many lawsuits thrown out of courts. Second, he had no right to bring this lawsuit into court as he was previously deemed unfit to parent by a California custody court. In fact, the parent with sole custody tried to take her daughters name off the crazy lawsuit, but that court is so screwed up, they didn't respect the rights of the parent. This court would hear the arguments of dead-beat dads, if it meant they could promote their liberal and socialistic opinions, oh, wait they did with Dr. Newdow. As I said, they have had 85% of their cases overturned by the Supreme Court, and this will be no different.

3. The state of California has a right to make a law stating that children must do a patriotic act each school day. If the child chooses to say the pledge sans "under God", he/she has fulfilled that obligation. To possibly claim that the simple phrase "under God" has "INJURED" Dr. Newdow's non-custodial child is quite ridiculous. As I stated earlier, the custodial parent had no problems with it. It seems that Dr. Newdow is hell bent on taking God out, period (good luck sir), so much so that he will involve his daughter since all his other lawsuits have been canned.

4. For the other post, how is it abusive to notify parents that thier child isn't including "under God"? They are not punished by the teacher/school. One of two possibilities here. First, the teacher calls home, and the parents say, "that's right, we are raising our child to be atheistic in belief until they can choose for themselves." Case closed, the parent's rights have been respected, and the child continues to leave out "under God." Second case, "He/she is not!!! Thank you for calling, and I will talk to my child immediately as we have raised them better than that." Case closed, the parent's rights have been respected and THEY punish the child as THEY see fit. You have to let parents be parents.

I hope that this has clarified my feelings on this topic too. All I am asking for is a bit of intellectual follow-through and logical thinking. Enjoy the weekend when it comes, as I will be gone all day friday and won't post.

P.S.- Notice that the ACLU lawsuit was initiated without even talking to students. It was based on hearsay, and the school Super set the record straight. Haha, the ACLU is a radical secularist joke. Let me see them defend somebodies second amendment right or a first amendment right to public outspoken prayer , not likely, but I am sure I could find a case if I looked hard enough.

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Should they also notify the parents if they see interracial discussions in school?


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Geezus, how is the connection even made???!!!

I swear that you say anything to try and prove your point. There is a hell of a difference between protesting the Pledge during wartime, and interracial relationships. If you don't see that, then you are one messed up dude. I suppose you will find me some silly unwarrented ACLU clip of this happening. Good luck.

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Show me any text of LAW or REGULATION that makes protesting the Pledge ANY worse than ANY other activity.

You seem to make decision based on how you 'feel' about a certain issue. Wasn't this supposed to be a solely 'liberal' thing?


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Daenku,

I did not (and have not yet) said that protesting the pledge was wrong or unpatriotic. Please read all my posts and quote me if I did. Then I was wrong and I apologize.

It is wrong for a dependant child to protest the Pledge, if the parent expects them to say it. That IS what I alluded to, but never said.

You are text blind, you see only what you are wanting to see. I hope that you are not so against all the traditional conservative cornerstones of America that you will talk yourself into believing fibs and half-truths that you read in liberal newspapers and watch on liberal news.

Please, as I have asked, quote me.

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