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Quote:

So that's a dumb argument, almost as dumb as suggesting that Communism was some kind of saving force.




No more "dumb" than actually seriously suggesting that someone is to defend and support an ally no matter the reasoning and no matter your personal beliefs.

But, anyways, as soon as someone resorts to calling anothers argument "dumb", it's no longer an intellectual debate that I'm interested in, so I shall bow out of this particular conversation.


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Originally posted by Rabbit:

1)The UN is going to become useless, jsut the same way that the League of Nations did....remember them ??? I guess not.
The UN will become irrelevant because of the US. THey are using bully tactics.

2) Look at the great American diplomacy in Turkey .... they tried to buy the country for the use of bases. "Economic Aid" which is to be withdrawn if they do not co-operate.

3) I DO NOT want this damned Iraq war. This has nothing to do with 9/11. If you really believe it does then you are just plain ignorant...and a STUPID CRETIN to boot.

4)As for WWII .... the French, tell me about the French actions in Maginot, and their pre-war defences....I bet you can't.





You have such an altered perception of reality, it is hard to know where to begin. Your history degree is only as good as your liberal biased professors have allowed..

1) Agree the UN WILL become useless because they failed to enforce there own resolutions. Period.

2) Yes Turkey is a pay off. Tactically, we could do without it, especially if we had planned this earlier. But it was deamed important enough to pay them off so as to be in position TO PREVENT THEM FROM SLAUGHTERING KURDS in N Iraq as they compete for abandoned Iraq oil wells..which would allow the economic clout for a Kurdish state..which Turkey will kill to prevent.

3) I do not want this war either. Only the insane would...BTW, have you served in the military? Most who speak like you have not. 9/11 represents a fundemental shift for this administration. Iraq is the chief "holder" of biologics and chem weapons...it is documented. They have hated us and thumbed there nose at our "resolutions" for 12 years and know that they can get away with it. EVEN lacking any ties to Al queda they are high risk to interact with terrorist for mutual common goals. Bush has only insisted in enforcing resolutions passed years ago. Had Iraq not invaded a nation, we would have no case. But what I find bothersome is the "standard" liberal retoric of questioning motives. You speak of revenge...Bush made no mention of Iraq before 9/11. It was not even on the radar, not in any Bush speech or mention of significance. You speak of oil..we have liberated Kuwait and overrun Iraq before. We put out the fires that Iraq set AND LEFT. Could have kept the whole enchalada. Political gain? Consider this..Bush has placed ALL of his marbles on the line. If Iraq goes poorly, he will be destroyed in 04. Bush had a HUGE popularity rating post Afganistan...he could have easily coasted to a win in 04 had Iraq not been mentioned. Infact, he could step down NOW, and claim a victory because Sadam is now "complying" with inspecions (if you believe Blix)because of a strong US show. "Thanks, everybody go home" You must know that Bush's dropping ratings (and the stock market) would rise as tensions eased over war. No doubt Bush could use this strategy to fool every body that a real change had been effected..which would be a lie, but good enough for an easy win in 04. Bush, like Tony Blair has all to lose and nothing to gain over an "ignor Iraq" attitude. Going forward, Right or wrong (history will judge) THAT is courage of conviction.. a trait that most liberals lack.

4) As for the French in 2003. talk about motives...Iraq is an important trading partner for France. France has and may still be selling arms to Iraq. Chirac and Sadam are reported to be friends. And this countries motives are based on the security of the world?? They spearhead this UN blocade knowing full well that it will cost US lives by forcing a summer sandstorm conflict that will reduce our effectiveness and allow time for sadam to build more trenches and traps. Corrupt misguided fools..



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Quote:

Certainly. There ARE costs to action.

There are also costs to INACTION.




well put...


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Originally posted by abwamo:
The minute the US got what they wanted "Kuwati oil" they forgot about their promise and left that mad man in power.



You're forgetting that the reason the US left Saddam in power was because of UN disapproval of his removal. Sound familiar?


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Originally posted by Viss1:
Originally posted by abwamo:
The minute the US got what they wanted "Kuwati oil" they forgot about their promise and left that mad man in power.



You're forgetting that the reason the US left Saddam in power was because of UN disapproval of his removal. Sound familiar?




A Baghdad invasion and removal of Saddam wasn't the mission in '91. Heck...we had people (I think Schwarzkopf) who made the case for "We're here, we've got the momentum, let's go in and get Hussein." Hindsight being 20/20, that probably should have been a goal but it wasn't and there's nothing to be done about that.

If the US did one thing wrong in that conflict, it was encouraging the Iraqi opposition to Hussein toward staging a coup and removing him themselves, then stepping back and just watching it happen.


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Keeing this thread rolling.

The Complete Military History of France

- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War
- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

Or, better still, the quote from last week's Wall Street Journal: "They're there when they need you."




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Originally posted by sigma:
But, anyways, as soon as someone resorts to calling anothers argument "dumb", it's no longer an intellectual debate that I'm interested in, so I shall bow out of this particular conversation.




good riddance. your arguments are, for lack of a better word, dumb and uneducated if you can chew on that one. while i've found your posts properly composed (unlike my emnotional outbursts when it comes to politics) and punctuated. your posts do lack factual reference, reasonable analisys, and virtually any hint of advanced intellectual activity taking place in your head. one thing i'm noticing in the left: learning how to speak well is only half the battle, the other is learning to know what the hell your talking about and speaking about it properly (but *GASP* that would make you a conservative / realist) It's fine to have an opposing opinion but regurgitating [censored] from leftists pamphlets i found every day at university hardly counts.. try reading a real history book or two.. or better yet a memoir of someone who was actually there!

Originally posted by abwamo:
The minute the US got what they wanted "Kuwati oil" they forgot about their promise and left that mad man in power.




because we've clearly occupied kuwait while exxon, shell, mobil, and BP have forged brand spanking new relationships with an oil rich nation. (might be news but the kuwaitis loved us before the gulf war and were happy to sell us oil in exchange for crispy american dollars (paper gold on the world stage))

idiot.

now i've had enough, the left can just go piss right into the goddamn wind cuz i'm gettin irate.


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