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This entire discussion is crap. It might as well be theology. The human body is set up to accomodate ANY diet. We were once incapable of sustaining the same diet for long periods of time. The winter diet was fiercly different than the summer diet. The humans teeth are proof of this. We have incisors for ripping and tearing and we have cuspids for grinding. The body was able to adapt (ala Darwin!) to any given situation. We have both types of digestive systems (Small and Large Intestines) and we are able to live feast or famine. Stop bitchin about right and not right! I don't mind vegetarians and even Vegans. Just don't talk to me about that damned Social Agenda that goes with Veganism. It is far too militant. If a cow could track us and kill us, it would! Survival of the fittest! The weak and the stupid all die off! We are the top of the food chain which gives us the Right to decide what happens. Live up to your destiny and quit crying about it. Who cares what food you eat. Next you will have a discussion about Nike vs. Puma. 
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Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
This entire discussion is crap. It might as well be theology.
The human body is set up to accomodate ANY diet. We were once incapable of sustaining the same diet for long periods of time. The winter diet was fiercly different than the summer diet. The humans teeth are proof of this. We have incisors for ripping and tearing and we have cuspids for grinding. The body was able to adapt (ala Darwin!) to any given situation. We have both types of digestive systems (Small and Large Intestines) and we are able to live feast or famine.
Stop bitchin about right and not right! I don't mind vegetarians and even Vegans. Just don't talk to me about that damned Social Agenda that goes with Veganism. It is far too militant. If a cow could track us and kill us, it would! Survival of the fittest! The weak and the stupid all die off! We are the top of the food chain which gives us the Right to decide what happens. Live up to your destiny and quit crying about it. Who cares what food you eat. Next you will have a discussion about Nike vs. Puma.
Well, I care and try to educate people because:
-When people make poor nutritional choices, they get diseases, which often baffle the medical community. Lots of people are sick in this country, which makes MY insurance premiums way too high.
-These same people think modern medicine will save them, which it won't, and demand things like prescription drug programs. That makes MY taxes higher. Do you know of a prescription drug that cures anything? No, they merely treat symptoms, not the root cause.
-I don't like to see people suffer, often at their own ignorance.
Your statement "The human body is set up to accomodate ANY diet." is crap. This is simply not true. True, the human body has an amazing ability to adapt, but that doesn't mean it is going to function properly long-term. Often, problems don't arise for years, or decades, until the internal resources of the body are depleted.
We will all be better off when people realize that their own actions affect others, even on a personal level like diet.
-Lance
Lance Kinley
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One of my favorite quotes: "If God didn't want us to eat cows, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."  Personally, I agree with Rev. Po-Jay. Eat what you want just don't tell me what to eat. Sure, prime rib probably isn't healthy, but it's oh so good. I figure I'm gonna die one day, so why not have fun in the mean time.
Ken
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Originally posted by klavender:
One of my favorite quotes:
"If God didn't want us to eat cows, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."
And I guess if you belive that one then you also belive this one ? "If god had wanted us to be nudists we would have been born naked"
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Originally posted by Lance Kinley:
Well, I care and try to educate people because:
-When people make poor nutritional choices, they get diseases, which often baffle the medical community. Lots of people are sick in this country, which makes MY insurance premiums way too high.
-These same people think modern medicine will save them, which it won't, and demand things like prescription drug programs. That makes MY taxes higher. Do you know of a prescription drug that cures anything? No, they merely treat symptoms, not the root cause.
-I don't like to see people suffer, often at their own ignorance.
Your statement "The human body is set up to accomodate ANY diet." is crap. This is simply not true. True, the human body has an amazing ability to adapt, but that doesn't mean it is going to function properly long-term. Often, problems don't arise for years, or decades, until the internal resources of the body are depleted.
We will all be better off when people realize that their own actions affect others, even on a personal level like diet.
-Lance
Lance (I mean no disrespect) people are far outliving their originally intended times. Pre Medicine, people lived about 50 years max! Hard living and sh!tty diet left them road wary and worn out. It has taken 100's of thousands of years to get to where we are now. It is comfort as well as diet that has kept up around for so long, as of late. Prove to me that Vegans and/or Vegetarians live longer and healthier than their Carnivorous counter-parts! You cannot! There has not been enough history on this subject. You know why? Because until now, people have not had the freaking option to disregard a plentiful source of food!!! Wake up dude! Sh!t man, do you think even the Depression era folks could have passed up a steak because of their "PRINCIPALS"??? Bullsh!t! Eat what you want but keep this topic on the "Meat Is Murder" newsletter! I like fast cars!
BTW- You are not "Educating" you are "Preaching".. Trust me, I am a Reverend. 
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Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
Lance (I mean no disrespect) people are far outliving their originally intended times. Pre Medicine, people lived about 50 years max! Hard living and sh!tty diet left them road wary and worn out. It has taken 100's of thousands of years to get to where we are now. It is comfort as well as diet that has kept up around for so long, as of late. Prove to me that Vegans and/or Vegetarians live longer and healthier than their Carnivorous counter-parts! You cannot! There has not been enough history on this subject. You know why? Because until now, people have not had the freaking option to disregard a plentiful source of food!!! Wake up dude! Sh!t man, do you think even the Depression era folks could have passed up a steak because of their "PRINCIPALS"??? Bullsh!t! Eat what you want but keep this topic on the "Meat Is Murder" newsletter! I like fast cars!
BTW- You are not "Educating" you are "Preaching".. Trust me, I am a Reverend.
Ah yes, the length of life argument. What everyone who brings this up fails to acknowledge is the QUALITY of those years. My grandfather lived to 71, but I can tell you, the last five years of his life were living hell. Modern medicine kept him alive, but I don't think it was worth it.
The main reason people live longer today is the extensive use of antibiotics and availability of "food". Prescription drugs help, too, but they don't really help make those years as good as the previous ones.
I can't prove to you here, especially when you aren't open to the evidence. But, I can tell you, the evidence is quite strong and varied. Do some research for yourself. I doubt you will, though. Read "Diet for a New America", that's a good start.
Plentiful source of food?!! Do you have ANY idea what it takes to grow beef? Do you have any idea how much agricultural land is dedicated to growing food for the cattle industry? It is mind boggling. Did you know that there isn't the same controls over the use of pesticide on these crops as there is for those intended for humans?
And where did I say I believe this due to principals? NOWHERE. If I had absolutely nothing to eat for days on end and a steak was my only option, I would probably eat it. People are vegetarians for reasons other than principals regarding animal treatment.
I could write a book here with everything I'd like to say, but it would be pointless. Your mind is made up and there's no moving you. My attitude five years ago was the same. My deteriorating health is what it took for me to start doing some research on the subject and to take action. I've spent the last four years researching and learning as much as I could about what it takes to be optimally healthy. I've only been a vegetarian for the last two.
-Lance
Lance Kinley
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I say eat what you like, but in moderation. In a joking manner I tell folks that hotdogs are the safest food you can eat, simply because there is not enough of any one thing in them that can kill you.
My stepdaughter doesn't eat meat, but will eat cheese and eggs. She says she simply doesn't like the taste of meat. I can buy that. I don't care for the taste of celery either, but I do like my fish cooked and my steaks blood rare.
I suspect there are people who are better suited for eating meat and others who are better off not. I was reading in a recent issue of Fortune (isn't that the best place for nutrition information) that metabolic rates are vastly different between people, so while the federal guidelines for caloric intake vs body mass might be great averages, there are plenty of people outside the norms. So what really was needed was a way to derive individual resting metabolic rates.
I'm sure this is also true for digestive systems and dietary needs. I drink about 1/2 gallon of skim milk every day. My wife can hardly stand ice cream or other dairy products. The very same is true with my grandmother.
Then there is my grandmother's aunt (is that my great great aunt?) 102 years old last fall, mind sharp as a tack, but she really can't walk anymore, so she's in the nursing home giving the staff heck. She wants black coffee and bacon for breakfast.
When I'm 102 and I want black coffee and bacon or a steak for breakfast, I better darn well get it. Don't you think I've earned the privelege of choosing my food after a century of life, LOL?
I will agree with the notion that we eat too many prepared or convenience foods, and certainly too much fat and sugar. However, I don't agree that a particular food itself is bad for you, but only when foods are overweighted in your diet do they become a problem.
There is one thing wrong with the argument that we have to spend a lot on the healthcare of the fat. Seems we will have to spend a lot on the healthcare of everybody at the end of their life. Also, living healthy is no guarantee you won't be sick.
I had a very healthy lifestile right up to the point when I was diagnosed with cancer. I worked out 6 days a week, ate a pretty balanced diet that avoided most junk and fast foods. (Although hotwings and beer were enjoyed on occassion.) Still I had to undergo a couple of operations and chemotherapy.
I guess my point is we are all different, and what works for one may not work for another. So find what works for you instead of trusting those selling you what they have. This includes those who sell foods, snacks, books or diets.
TB
37, Balding, my last prescription medication was chemoterapy drugs in Oct 1994. No prescriptions prior to that either other than pain killers, which I never took.
PS, No cavities yet either.
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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I do see your point and I am a fairly enlightened individual. I understand the strains on the environment from raising cattle for beef. The land could produce 5 times more food if used for Vegetarianism. End world famine..yada yada... I understand all of that. My point is that you can forgoe meat consumption because you are given that pleasure. You afford that. Humans did not/could not afford that in the past. We hunted for meat. I am not talking raising cattle for mass consumption, I am talking hunting for your family and tribe. People were vegetarians in the winter and meat eaters in the summer because that is how it worked out. The bottom line is that I do agree that a meatless diet CAN be healthier, but most people do not know how to do it. It is all about complex protiens ect... I see your point, truly and I enjoy the banter, but I hope that you can see that we as a species ARE meat eaters and you are going against nature... Not bad or good, just a choice.
Thank you Lance.
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I can show you two studies sponsored by the JAMA. The most recent one includes 125,000 test subjects, the largest ever produced, is still being processed. The earlier one, over a 30 year period, shows that vegetarians, from a specific religious group, live 14 years longer. New data would lead the researchers to believe that vegans from that same group lived more like 21 years longer. We are not talking about 14 years of dimensia either. We are talking about 14 years of functionality. Oh, by the way, I am also a reverend. Did you know in California, that certain prision are now established on Vegan diets? The correctional institutions are not forcing it, gives the incarcerated's a choice. There is a waiting list to enter these vegan jails. Vegan Jail Here is just one. ARTICLE Baltimore Vegan Prison Even Vegan prision in Hawaii.
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Thank you for the information. Who is the JAMA? Who actually funded this study? I hate to sound like a sceptic, but give the right amount of money, I could produce a study that shows Smokers have better sex lives... ;-) It is not fair to use different countries as one group or the other. The groups have to be same/similar due to things like our life expectancy being lessened by war. These factors need to be backed out. Tibetan Munks are Vegetarian but it is more their personal beliefs, lack of warring attitude and mastery of their physiology that makes them live so damn long. They are not a fair group to use.. They are "Ringers" so to speak. Again, I agree that a vegetarian / Vegan lifestyle can be a healthier way, but 99% of Vegetarians / Vegans out there don't do it with the education that it takes. It is a much tougher way to live. You really can't even buy store bought bread (Vegans) to be true. Not to mention the Vegan Militant Freaks out there. Glad to meet a fellow Reverend. 
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