|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 405
CEG\'er
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 405 |
Originally posted by Horse:
LOL- BMW most certainly do not measure HP at the wheels-
thanks you made my day!
Quote:
My father has a 540 that he dinan stage 2 tuned his car. here is a scan out of that catalog.
BMW, or Dinan... Make up your mind... Two completely different companies. BMW most likely measures from flywheel like most production companies. Dinan on the other hand probably measures from the rear wheels. So which is it?!? 
Gone: 98 E0 Silver SVT
'00 ZX2
Kip Killmons Tysons Ford killed my clutch and did not stand behind their word.
NEVER visit this dealership, they are fraudulent!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506 |
Ok I must chime in here.......BMW does not messure there HP rating form the wheels....the messure from the engine (fly wheel). This i know because I work for a European car parts wholesaler. I deal and talk to BMW al day and i decided to call my vendor and my dealers about this issue. I even E-mailed my BMW contacts in Germany they all say they messure at the Engine.
So I hope this clarifies things...and the HP rating for the M5 is 395 hp. Although some top 400hp. Freak M5's. the M3 is 333hp to the engine. And with BMW's subtract 18 to 19 percent from the engine HP and you will get an estimate of wheel HP. if you want to be more exact its 18.9523%.
I hope this helps!
Roz
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506 |
Dinan, Who is also one of my contacts, does messure at the wheels. But they are not a dealer in any way. There are strictly an aftermarket source that BMW autherizes to do performance upgrades to there cars.
Even when BMW has them do a car to sell at the dealership, the sticker reflects HP at the engine not the wheels.
But, any catalogs, or paper work that comes from Dinan, you can assume its wheel HP. Un less stated differently.
Roz
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 57
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 57 |
I think the svt turbo kit is putting down 290-300 wheel hp @10psi in a 3068 lb body in arizona heat, where as the M5 is putting down 340hp @ the wheels in a 4024 lb body. I feel if we can squeeze another 30 to 50 more hp we should be able to walk a stock M5 in any given situation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506 |
Take you 300 Wheel HP and add (low number to be safe)15% = 345HP to the engine of a contour.
Now your 340 for the M5 add 15% (just to make it equal) you get 391hp. so you need about an extra 50 Flywheel Hp to match a M5.(less because our cars are lighter say 40hp)
But in actuality 18% is more accurate for the BMW's so 340 + 18%= 401hp so you need about 60 Hp extra (to be safe) to walk over a M5. Any l;ess than 50hp is cutting it close.
i hope i didn;t confuse people.
Roz
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by rozwell911:
1. Take you 300 Wheel HP and add (low number to be safe)15% = 345HP to the engine of a contour.
2. Now your 340 for the M5 add 15% (just to make it equal) you get 391hp. so you need about an extra 50 Flywheel Hp to match a M5.(less because our cars are lighter say 40hp)
3. But in actuality 18% is more accurate for the BMW's so 340 + 18%= 401hp so you need about 60 Hp extra (to be safe) to walk over a M5. Any l;ess than 50hp is cutting it close.
1. That is a low number. Also WHY use crank numbers. They are pretty meaningless. Power to the ground is the only thing that really counts vs a guesstimate of what is at the crank!
2. You are saying that being 1000lbs lighter is only worth about 10HP. You are nutz! Try around 100-120 "crank" HP & TQ!
3. Now you are giving the BMW an advantage in your guesstimate. Why???
BTW - MTX-75 losses are ~17-18% so if you wanted to guesstimate crank power number you would add ~22% or divide by .82
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 972
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 972 |
OK. First of all, let me say this:
Doesn't anyone read any posts before they reply? Look back at my post that has a pic in it. That is a scanned page out of the dinan catalog. in the dinan catalog, they do baseline dynos that are under the column labed "stock". Now look at them closely. Yes that says 394hp. Now look at my second pic, an excerpt from the back of the catalog. It states that all dynos were at the wheels. That should include the "stock" 394 wheel hp. Now put 2 and 2 together and you'll come up with the reasoning why I'm under the impression that the hp is at the wheels.
The other reason I was under the impression that the hp was at the wheels, was that it makes sense.
Example: a 3600 lb 03 cobra dynoed at 381hp at the wheels and ran a 12.8 quarter mile in the july mm+ff. A 3900 lb m5 geared for the highway dynos at 325hp and can still pull off a 13.1? Doesn't make sense to me.
Now, that being said, I am not saying anyone is wrong. Dinan could be lying. I guess the only thing that matters is that the guys on the m5 boards are getting 325hp at the wheels regardless of what any manufacturer or tuner says.
95 SE Modded - Gone
98 E0 Black SVT - Gone
98 se sport - Broken
00 T-Red SVT - Nice
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469 |
Originally posted by 95Mike:
OK. That is a scanned page out of the dinan catalog. in the dinan catalog, they do baseline dynos that are under the column labed "stock". Now look at them closely. Yes that says 394hp. Now look at my second pic, an excerpt from the back of the catalog. It states that all dynos were at the wheels.
It is pretty common in advertisements to show graphs of HP already converted to crank HP (as many people would not know the difference between wheel & crank HP..and crank is more "flattering"). Pretty sure this is what the Dinan graphs show.
BMW does not currently use WHP ratings (past, not sure) But I think they underrate power in many cases. The E36 BMWs rated at 240 HP typically make about 210+ at the wheels..which is about 253+ crank using 17% losses. Current 330i rated at 225 HP seems underrated for the speeed it runs but have not seen dynos. Alternatively, they may have very efficient trannys. They also tend to have very broad power curves..the net result of which is they run like they have 10-20 HP more. Normally. power to weight is pretty predictive of times but with BMW add about 15 to there stated power as a fudge factor. 03 Cobra is currently the best example of underrating power but others including the LS1 do it too.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,506 |
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Originally posted by 95Mike:
OK. That is a scanned page out of the dinan catalog. in the dinan catalog, they do baseline dynos that are under the column labed "stock". Now look at them closely. Yes that says 394hp. Now look at my second pic, an excerpt from the back of the catalog. It states that all dynos were at the wheels.
It is pretty common in advertisements to show graphs of HP already converted to crank HP (as many people would not know the difference between wheel & crank HP..and crank is more "flattering"). Pretty sure this is what the Dinan graphs show.
BMW does not currently use WHP ratings (past, not sure) But I think they underrate power in many cases. The E36 BMWs rated at 240 HP typically make about 210+ at the wheels..which is about 253+ crank using 17% losses. Current 330i rated at 225 HP seems underrated for the speeed it runs but have not seen dynos. Alternatively, they may have very efficient trannys. They also tend to have very broad power curves..the net result of which is they run like they have 10-20 HP more. Normally. power to weight is pretty predictive of times but with BMW add about 15 to there stated power as a fudge factor. 03 Cobra is currently the best example of underrating power but others including the LS1 do it too.
Thank you this is my point....Sorry I wasn';t more clear. But you have to remember Dinan is NOT a BMW related company. They are there own self sufficent compay that BMW contracts to tune there cars and BMW certifies there parts to be used on there cars. ANd I kow for a fact that the dealers and BMW North America do not messure there HP at the wheels. So I mean come one....math may not be one of my strong suites....and yes I probably messed up my calculations (thanks for the correction demon) but me working in the BMW world, I think I should know what BMW messures there HP. Regardless of what Dinan says....The correct messurements is at the crank for BMW not the wheels.
Roz
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,397
b0x @dm1n
|
|
b0x @dm1n
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,397 |
You are forgetting one key factor, Traction. The M5 puts all that power to the ground much more effectivly and any front wheel drive street vehicle. You may beat him with slicks once but more thanlikely on the second run you would be picking your tranny up off the tarmac.
-Andy
Andy W.
The problem with America is stupidity.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment
for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety
labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
|
|
|
|
|
