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Back to basics. When it will not start, have you pulled a plug to see if it is wet? You can probably tell if things are grossly too rich as the plugs would probably foul pretty quickly. Was the exhaust sooty and black before it died?
Will it start with the accellerator floored? I think this still tells the engine not to dump fuel and is recommended if you think the engine is flooded. So you might try that as well.
Going the otherway, is it possible your nitrous kit is not playing nice with your fuel pressure regulator? How is your fuel pressure? I can't see the original message right now, so I don't remember if you mentioned verifying this.
Might want to back out the nitrous kit to see if things don't return to normal.
Just a couple of back to the basics, as I've never done the 3L swap.
TB
Last edited by tboner; 01/18/03 02:55 AM.
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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The Nitrous is fine with it.. the Nitrous Solenoid won't put any pressure on the regulator until the system is armed.. and in this case.. currently it isn't wired for the exact reason.. of getting the car running right first. I have not pulled a plug yet.. but will tomorrow and let everyone know what I find. I will also check the exhaust.. however the car does not smell rich at all..
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Sounds to me like I would temporarily disconnect the NOS kit to trouble shoot the engine. Disconnect it, pull the pcm memory fuse, fire it up and let it learn for about an hour of driving (if possible). If the problem happens again then perhaps you will want to use a wideband O2 to see what is happening. Is your fuel rail a return style? Check to make sure your fuel pressure regulator is plugged in and has good vacuum. If unplugged it will run lean under accel.
warmonger
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Check to make sure your fuel pressure regulator is plugged in and has good vacuum. If unplugged it will run lean under accel.
warmonger
It wont make it leaner under accel. Fuel pressure would be HIGHER with no manifold vacuum (WOT conditions) The whole reason the engineers added the vacuum compensation hose to the fuel pressure regulator, is to compensate the fuel injector line pressure with the intake manifold vacuum to make it consistant. Read all about it in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0837603013/002-2645806-1182436?vi=glance
It goes like this: When manifold vacuum is high (under idle or low load conditions when throttle plate is CLOSED), then there is more vacuum that is HELPING to suck fuel out of the injectors. And when you open the throttle (loading the engine), the manifold vacuum drops, which means that their is less vacuum pulling on the bottom of the spray nozzles, so to get the same injector flow as before (without changing injector pulse width), the fuel line pressure must be INCREASED to compensate for the less vacuum that was in the intake helping suck the gas out. Does this make sense? If you unplug the vacuum line, at idle, the fuel pressure should rise almost or around 10psi from when the line was on. At least, that's what the psi differential was on my old 5.0 Mustang when I had checked it. Each engine's pressure regulator is designed to have the pressure differential compensate the flow perfectly based on all factors (intake vacuum, vs fuel line pressure, vs flow). This is the only way the ECM can have consistent control over what the injectors are spraying under all conditions (without having to make sudden excessive computer calculations (beyond what it would normally need to) in the injector pulse width based on slight changes in intake manifold vacuum. Hopefully this sheds some light on it.
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I have disconnected the Nitrous for now. I will trouble shoot more today as soon as the temp climbs a little (-2 out right now). I'm pretty sure the FPR is ok and has good vacuum But I will check it. The EFI system is the return style.
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Originally posted by Josch:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Check to make sure your fuel pressure regulator is plugged in and has good vacuum. If unplugged it will run lean under accel.
warmonger
Originally posted by Josch:
It wont make it leaner under accel. Fuel pressure would be HIGHER with no manifold vacuum (WOT conditions)
Wrong. Intuitively you are right, but in actuality you are dead wrong. On our cars with OBDV, the pcm trims the fuel according to idle and load conditions and then uses these figures to calculate the amount of fuel to deliver at WOT. If his pressure regulator were unplugged he would be running 10psi higher as you already stated, but the pcm compensates for this by adjusting the pulse-width to the injectors...very quickly I might add. It would be all great until he went WOT then the computer would expect the fuel pressure to increase...only there wouldn't be any increase since it was already running 10psi higher.
And for further proof, assuming you believe me, I have tried it and tested it with an OBD scanner.
Originally posted by Josch:
The whole reason the engineers added the vacuum compensation hose to the fuel pressure regulator, is to compensate the fuel injector line pressure with the intake manifold vacuum to make it consistant. Read all about it in this book:
It goes like this: When manifold vacuum is high (under idle or low load conditions when throttle plate is CLOSED), then there is more vacuum that is HELPING to suck fuel out of the injectors. And when you open the throttle (loading the engine), the manifold vacuum drops, which means that their is less vacuum pulling on the bottom of the spray nozzles, so to get the same injector flow as before (without changing injector pulse width), the fuel line pressure must be INCREASED to compensate for the less vacuum that was in the intake helping suck the gas out. Does this make sense? If you unplug the vacuum line, at idle, the fuel pressure should rise almost or around 10psi from when the line was on. At least, that's what the psi differential was on my old 5.0 Mustang when I had checked it. Each engine's pressure regulator is designed to have the pressure differential compensate the flow perfectly based on all factors (intake vacuum, vs fuel line pressure, vs flow). This is the only way the ECM can have consistent control over what the injectors are spraying under all conditions (without having to make sudden excessive computer calculations (beyond what it would normally need to) in the injector pulse width based on slight changes in intake manifold vacuum. Hopefully this sheds some light on it.
Hey, all of this sounds great and thanks for showing us a good book to read.
warmonger
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Probably pay close attention to all of the factory plugs/wires associated with R&R the engine. If something small escaped notice then that could be causing it.
More importantly, checking gaskets for leakage will be difficult, but the manifold, TB and PCV system or anywhere that unmetered air can enter the engine needs to be checked as well.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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I am going to test the ECT sensor first because after looking at it for a few this morning I am almost positive that no fluid has made it past the sensor yet which I'm guessing would effect the reading from that sensor.
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Wrong. Intuitively you are right, but in actuality you are dead wrong. On our cars with OBDV, the pcm trims the fuel according to idle and load conditions and then uses these figures to calculate the amount of fuel to deliver at WOT. If his pressure regulator were unplugged he would be running 10psi higher as you already stated, but the pcm compensates for this by adjusting the pulse-width to the injectors...very quickly I might add. It would be all great until he went WOT then the computer would expect the fuel pressure to increase...only there wouldn't be any increase since it was already running 10psi higher.
And for further proof, assuming you believe me, I have tried it and tested it with an OBD scanner.
Hey, all of this sounds great and thanks for showing us a good book to read.
warmonger
What I had explained to you must have COMPLETELY went over your head because, what you think I was explaining wasn't even what I was trying to say. I know how OBD II works. I went to several workshops on how they work. My employer pays me to go to professional workshops that teach me concepts that come from reputable sources, since I work in the field as a tech. Do you know what pressure differencial is? Do you know what compensate means? All the vacuum diaphram is for on the fuel pressure regulator is to COMPENSATE for the PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL between intake pressure, and fuel line pressure. This has nothing to do with the ECM's normal metering and trim programs for actual running (idle, part throttle, WOT) conditions, other than to COMPENSATE. Please study what you know before you preach it. And read my post again, but more SLOWLY. I tryed to put it into lamens terms by using easy words like suck, and help and stuff. But even though I say vacuum, scientifically, there is a just a LOWER pressure in the intake manifold than what is in the fuel line, and at various throttle positions, this pressure 'differential' between the two, changes, which affects FUEL FLOW consistancy at any given set pulse width (since the computer has NO idea how much pressure is in the fuel line and cannot compensate for it in OPEN LOOP since it has no MAP sensor). To eliminate this variance in flow from throwing off the engine's normal fuel adjustment program, the automakers had decided to eliminate this simple change in injector flow that was being caused by PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL, so they made an intake pressure to fuel pressure 'adjuster', if you will, which is built-in to the fuel pressure regulator. This is how it is, I don't make the rules. Why don't you plug in a fuel pressure gauge, AND a vacuum gauge up to your engine and watch the pressure change in fuel line act in a DIRECT relation to intake vacuum, and study it for awhile, and you just might begin to make the corrilation between why the vacuum might affect the fuel pressure in such harmony. And go buy the book too
PS- Sorry if I sound kinda testy, but I'm right in this matter, and I don't want others to be misled by misinformation
'95 CONTOUR SE
-Enkei 16s
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-Dual escapes w/ 2 1/2" stainless tips
-True LED taillight conversion
- Audi Xenon Projector Retrofit
-Mp3 deck, dual 10s
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Tom may have mistakenly typed OBDV, but he meant EEC V. This has nothing to do with OBD-II. OBD II is just a diagnostic code to retrieve very limited fault & sensor information from the PCM. It has nothing to do with the PCM's control of the engine. That's where the PCM's actual programming (EEC V) comes in play. As for your ranting... Your main mistake is comparing EEC IV to EEC V  EEC V does act much differently than your old Mustang's EEC IV did. Also like Tom alluded to the PCM really does do all the calculations. One of the reasons that you should definitely understand/believe is we do not have a MAP sensor like your old mustang did. Also it is actually tremendously more efficient to do it this way. (better power, better mpg, less emissions, etc) Also with the night & day difference in PCM design these calculations take milliseconds where an EEC IV PCM would take days. (okay that's a "literal" overstatement but the difference in technology is that far apart!) I have not personally tested it like Tom did, but I have seen the PCM code. Also if you still can't fathom the PCM being able to calculate injector pulse, fuel pump voltage, load, hundreds of scalars and multipliers, etc that fast. Take a look at how a returnless engine works once! No FPR, No MAP, etc. Everything is computer controlled right down to the actual voltage that runs the fuel pump. Technology has come a long way. You state you have a working understanding of "OBD-II." You should understand this then! Even comparing an OBD I car to OBD II car is ludicrous. Much less comparing the drastic change & increased complexity of EEC IV to EEC V! Also your bash on Tom was pretty stupid. Especially since he is right; how do you think that makes you look??? I've read some of your posts where your reponses were very knowledgable. I've read others were you are out in left field. I'd say you are definitely in left field this time. If you still want more proof I'll gladly post some captured screen images of a few of the tables, scalars, and multipliers in the EEC V code that pertain to this.
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