Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Duratec Performance Crank Whip

Originally posted by jlanger:

---

In reply to:

---

Now, with the ATX you rev much less than MTX cars

---

Mine gets up to 5k-6k just about everyday. I really should start thinking abotu getting a DMD. I have nearly 90k now anything to look for before getting it. I'd hate to spend a couple of hundred bucks only to have the engine go a couple of days/weeks later.

---

Bro Like Demon, that's cruising for me on a daily basis. Each day I drive my tour it experiences on more than one occasion, revs up to 7600rpm, YES, you read correctly, 7600 Rotations Per Minute.

All this talk about "Crank Whip", Look I've got 53,000 Miles on my SVT, I've calculated over 1000miles of legal off-road Road Course Racing, which Includes Solo 1/2 and Drag Racing. This doesn't include the daily stress I've incurred on this motor and the many run ins with the 'Curious ones' and might I add, most of those trecks on and off the street were done with a Lightened UDP, not the stock one and not the DMD and to date the car is superb. I run very good/silky/smooth/lifesaving Amsoil 0w30 Racing Sytnthetic Motor Oil religously for most of the life of this motor and regularly change my oil filter with ( I only use Amsoil Oil Filters for the superb properties of filtration ). I have recently installed a DMD and notice the benefits of a much smoother motor especially above 6500rpm which I pay a visit and much beyond more than I need to.

I'm not trying to Jinks myself and I sure hope I don't, but the point I'm trying to get across is I personally think that the whole Crank Whip deal is a bit overdated/overthought/and IMO a bit OverLame. Seriously, talking about Crank Whip won't solve the problem a problem that IMO has been greatly exasperated. If Crank Whip Concerns you than just go get the DMD. A number here can remember over a year ago when I tried to make a production start of high quality racing dampers by Fisher which could of had an underdrive of about 20% along with much better properties of dampening then the current factory DMD we all have come to know and some use, it drew much attention but fell rather quick flat on its face simply because many felt it wasn't economically priced compared to the DMD which started to make an abrupt appeareance around the time due to the Fisher Damper. Unless you work for Ford or plan on making a major impact on how Ford will make there motors, Just take Crank Whip as what it is, an Issue with an Affordable Solution, which we can now offically call IAS...

I'll say it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, AMSOIL, AMSOIL, AMSOIL. I am a testament as to how durable this motor really is with even an underdrive pulley. Terry Haines has mentioned it's the lack of oil between the bearings and the crank that eventually lead to failures so the right oil will help greatly alleviate that to an extent.

Use Amsoil 0w30 motor oil change your filter frequently if you drive very hard like me and just be happy with a GREAT MOTOR, DMD or no DMD

It's interesting when someone says "I been driving my car for ---- years and this problem hasn't happened to me so I don't believe it's a problem."

I would like to point out that my company had 1600 Dodge Intrepids, (1996,1997,1998). Half of them failed transmissions at about 60k. The guy's who didn't have tranny trouble thought the car was great. The one's who had trouble, thought the car sucked. Half could say "I never had that problem!" So it is with the Contours. If you don't have the problem, great. But don't be too quick to poopoo (or is it poo-poo?) the idea.

Crank whip exists in ALL cranks (All engines, reciprocating compressors, steam engines, etc...). The question isn't whether whip exist, just whether the whip can be contained or controlled by the bearings, dampers, design. The best oil (I don't care, pick your brand) will not stop it. When the crank distorts beyong the physical limits of the bearing, it will push through any brand oil film and ruin the bearing. You can't stop it with oil. Denying it exists doesn't work either.

The whip on your car may be a little different than mine or others because of variances in the densities of the crank metal, couterbalance weight differences, differences in machining of the journals, and different bearing clearances. You may have a "loose" motor and the whip doesn't extend past clearance. Another car may have a "tight" motor and the whip hits the bearing.
I am glad you never had a problem with it and I hope you never do. But some have and some will and it is good to discuss reasons and ways to prevent it. The DMD is one way to reduce the displacement in whip by dampening the vibration displacement.

Richard,
Very well put.You are spot on along with the fact that this subject has been flogged to death on this and other club boards.....you can't f**k with the physics...thats the way it is.Bit loke questioning gravity .....jump off your huse roof to prove it!!

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

---

It's interesting when someone says "I been driving my car for ---- years and this problem hasn't happened to me so I don't believe it's a problem."

Denying it exists doesn't work either.

The whip on your car may be a little different than mine or others because of variances in the densities of the crank metal, couterbalance weight differences, differences in machining of the journals, and different bearing clearances. You may have a "loose" motor and the whip doesn't extend past clearance. Another car may have a "tight" motor and the whip hits the bearing.
I am glad you never had a problem with it and I hope you never do. But some have and some will and it is good to discuss reasons and ways to prevent it. The DMD is one way to reduce the displacement in whip by dampening the vibration displacement.

---

1)Boy I don't get how people make there conclusions on others comments. Where in my post did I say anything about NVH not being a Problem, because I sure don't see it!! My comment about me not having a problem, was giving members here a sense of relief. The fact of the matter is this issue has been inflated so many times over. GET with the PROGRAM already, if harmonics bother you so much, instead of trying to find an answer, answered many times, just get the DMD! Our fellow CEG'er here is looking to nitpick into the whole NVH issue to find other possible answers, FOR WHAT? Does he or anyone for that matter Honestly think talking about something "I consider Old NEWS," change anything, IMO I don't think so.


2)Denying it doesn't exist!! WTF, were did that comment come from. I clearly stated I tried to get an Aftermarket Damper off the ground. I was head first in this whole NVH issue when it blew up over a year ago, and obviously I'm fully aware of the problem.

3) First I'll shake my head, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you thought I wasn't aware of variances in motors! And NO, it's not good to discuss a topic thats been discussed so many times, with the same response, same answer every time out IMO.

Try not to take this as an attack, I'm trying to make you see that you've misinterpeted my comment above. By the way, OIL does play a factor even in these situations, and even as I mentioned in my above comment, 'TO AN EXTENT!'

Originally posted by 3.0L SVT E0:

---

Why would an automatic car be protected from 'whip' more? The auto car CAN rev just as high as the manual car can. Like I said in the post,
"There are alot of variables there. I think that is one clue to why the DMD is there mainly for NVH. If it was there to save the motor from shaking it's self to pieces then why isn't it there on every duratech motor? Why take the chance if you are the manufacturer? You're playing russian roulette with every motor you place in a car without this damper."

I think that placing the DMD only on cars that are available with manual transmissions doesn't make sense to me. The ATX car can and will rev just as high as a manual car if the pedal is pushed to the floor. This is why I am of the opinion that the DMD is for dealing with NVH issues, not the cure all for internal vibration problems.

---

Part of my response is to this, that it is a NVH and not a failure problem. Part is to the claim that the right oil will prevent this failure without regarding the physical properties of motors (I read you put the DMD on, so you "know"). The response was not necessarily to educate you , but to make clear to those others without a lot of knowledge that crank whip exists, oil won't fix it, and there are remediations that can prevent it to a greater extent (i.e. DMD). I am not saying Amsoil isn't a premium, fine oil. I am not saying ---- Brand oil isnt good. That synthetic Oil isn't good. I am not saying oil starvation or loss of lubrication doesn't happen.

Since this forum is read by many people, with varying degrees of experience and knowledge, I tried to write my responce with as many clear facts so everyone understands. It was not intended to flame, just educate. It is difficult to know everyones background. Terry H., whether you have a gripe with him or not, has an extensive background. I could write to his level and lose some of those here with little or no mechanical background. So I try to keep it simple.

So, no flame intended, just making sure the "general public" doesn't lose sight of some facts in the heat of the discussion.

FWIW, I am a Mechanical Engineer, spent 9 years as a Diesel mechanic (Local 440 Machinist and Aerospace Workers), I do vibration analysis, drivetrain alignments as a Mech. Eng. I have rebuilt engines , trannies (mostly truck trannies, Spicer, Mack, Road Ranger), I weld, I've driven 18 wheelers (professionally, not just once around the block). I have a strange and diverse work history. I have a lot of education (Masters Degree) and a lot of experience. I am not a 15 year old who just received his license and a car from mommy. So, you can disagree with me, but it doesn't hurt to regard what I am saying. Not comparing myself to Terry H, but even if you don't like him, he brings a lot to the table too. Pays to regard his statements too.

Just my Humble Opinion , anyway.....:)

The point is your response to me, had no relation to my comment whatsoever. You basically completely misinterpeted my point and direction. As far as what you do, none of us may know what the other does, as far as Terry I do, and I always respect his opinions, you, well, I'm very happy you have such a background, but it still has no relation to my point of argument and we could use more knowledge here at CEG. Yet, my Argument has to do with the fact that some CEG'ers need to stop chasing after this whole NVH deal like it's some lost mystery, the chasing has been done to many times already with a logical and affordable solution. To say that maybe the DMD may not be doing it's job to the tee, OH WELL, I and many here can attest to the difference in the way the motor responds in such high revolutions, it's a night and day difference, and I can say, the only real logical solution is to rip apart the motor, something most already know about, to bad most aren't to fond of the idea. Is the DMD a must, I'm not one to say, my experience may show other wise, but the fact is people need to just get with the program. I wouldn't say such things but in this case the poster of this thread is obviously aware of the whole NVH thing!!!!

By the way, My response has nothing to do with Terry Haines..

Originally posted by 3.0L SVT E0:

---

1) Why would an automatic car be protected from 'whip' more? The auto car CAN rev just as high as the manual car can. Like I said in the post

2) I think that is one clue to why the DMD is there mainly for NVH. If it was there to save the motor from shaking it's self to pieces then why isn't it there on every duratech motor?

3) I think that placing the DMD only on cars that are available with manual transmissions doesn't make sense to me. The ATX car can and will rev just as high as a manual car if the pedal is pushed to the floor. This is why I am of the opinion that the DMD is for dealing with NVH issues, not the cure all for internal vibration problems.

Roger

---

Just to keep the fun comming..

1) It can...only if you shift it manually. A Taurus shifts automatically at 5800 RPM. Even with pedal to the metal. Even with the electric overdrive switched off. MPV, IIRC about 6K shifts. How many Taurus, MPV owners will manually shift?? I bet few have EVER visted 7K, and those that do...rarely. SVT visits 7K daily..
Oh, and also what was mentioned about the tourque converter..had not thought of that.

2) Lets flip this around...why does not the Jag have a DMD if it IS for NVH primarily. What Duratec needs better NVH control than the flagship luxury car?

3) see 1 & 2


wattspr..
It really is good that your car/engine has had no problems with a fair amount of ontrack. I do think these cars are tougher than sometimes given credit. But when talking about crank whip remember that spun bearings still happens to the minority of cars. Maybe 10%, maybe 20%, maybe even 30%...but even that leaves 70% that are fine. This is why anacdotal reports are of little use in figuring out whats going on...if you mentioned 1000 guys had a similar story as yours, it would be useful. However, several persons that race their cars HAVE had failure/spunbearings..1 even failed twice after adding a baffeled oil pan. And 58K is still pretty low mileage...an engine should last at least 3x that. And I am curious why you added the damper...you are a racer and you added an extra pound to the crank...was this really for smoothness or were you worried just a bit??

i'm tickled pink at the idea of my torque converter acting as a second vibration dampener

occasionally i will visit the high revs manually shifting (drag racing at the track) however i dont pound it into the red line as shifting a few ms before that seems to get me the best times and also allows me to avoid banging into the rev limiter even if my timing is a bit off.... my power band seems to fall flat on its face right before redline anyhow
but i digress
great thread, i feel smart today!