PPC-Racing,
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it's amazing, how, ' clique', like places become after a short while, heaven forbid someone come in a comment, not with a slam on a product but opinions and in some cases options or questions about parts of what they have done..
Hmm, I don't understand, maybe I'm just dumb, but I saw a pretty hefty slam on a product, including insulting the engineering behind the kit multiple times. Not that I have a problem with offering an opinion on a product, but don't expect to not get other's opinion of your opinion. You seem to be one of those "everybody's free to have an opinion" type people, excpet of course, if thier opinion, or the actual truth conflicts with your own opinion. I seem to remember someone else like this.
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I was pretty sure grown-ups resided here, with mr. Rara's comments forth coming and other comments, not focusing on the comments about the product but rather aimed at the person saying them, I see that I was mistaken.
I can assure you that adults certainly do reside here, and sometimes we engage in somehting called "technical discussion". It's fun really, where one side posts their insights and opinions on a technical matter, and then another person does the same, either agreeing or disagreeing with the other person, but giving real reasons why; and the discussion goes round and round with all parties benefiting from the sharing of technical information. Really its too bad you don't feel up to that. You imply I would focus on you as a person, rather than your comments, I am offended, seeing as how I do not know you, nor do I know your name, or even what you look like, how could I possibly have anything to comment on but your comments? You were mistaken, but only in the fact that you seemed to think everyone would simply take your evaluation as gospel, without some sort of discussion on the matter.
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this being my fouth post I beleive.. I will make it my last and leave, so save your attacks on ME for email if you wish me to see them.
wish I could say I enjoyed the ' debate' but it seems I've ended up defending, myself at large.
Again, do you expect no one to disagree with your evaluation? You come in and make an attempt at ripping this kit apart technically, and expect no-one to defend it? If you are truly capable of an intelligent technical discussion on the matter of forced induction, then I will truly be quite sad to see you go.
Well, on to the technical discussion . . .
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I am building a TT kit for the duratec
First, have you discovered yet, that locating the turbo for the rear bank is going to be a quite difficult task?
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I can just reash 1480F on the manifold.. now I don't know where your boys get thier metal info from but 321 is good for sustained use at 1850F and 304 is good to 1400F. I also don't know about your welders but I'm sure you've been told that mixing very different alloys like 321 and 304 is not a good idea as even TIG welds will be compromised.
First, exhaust gas temperatures are completely dependant on tune, and the exhaust port design, so the temperature on your supra manifold may or may not be anywhere near what this kit may see.
Second, I don't recall ever reading that they are welding together 321 and 304. It may well be that the headers are 321 while the downpipe may be 304, I don't know, and I highly suspect you don't either.
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the water/air IC is an odd chioce given the very low boost levels your working at, adding more complexity to a design is a Jr. Eng. students folly. a simple air/air IC will do the same job with less parts to go worng.
Are you a Jr. engineering student? because I see any twin turbo setup in a contour as needlesly complex.
Anyway, The water to air IC however, is, IMHO, an excellent choice in this application, due to the extremely limited package space, and the desire to limit tear-up to the vehicle receiving the installation. An air to air unit, is typically more desirable, however, in the case of the contour, space is so limited, that an adequate sized core would require considerable modification to the vehicle, and tear-up to fit, and could possibly jeapordize the concept of maintaining an adequate engine cooling system.
Yes, and air to air will do the same job, but requires significantly more continuous package space, and significantly more complex and longer plumbing to achieve the same charge cooling effect as the small water to air unit. This is package space the contour just doesn't have, at least not without ripping lots of things apart, and re-engineering most everything to work properly again. Not that it cant be done, but the water/air IC is a much better overall choice for this application.
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I noticed the dyno info was done with the upgraded BB T28, not the bushing model. I'd like to see those numbers..
Why? the kit includes the ball bearing T28.
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E manage is overkill, nice, but over kill, I use that in my full race kits for 400hp zetecs. Thier are better products for the boost level your working with.
I see proper fuel management as essential to a healthy turbo engine calibration. I would be interested to see what you deem to be a better product for this boost level, and how much it costs.
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So you've chosen to run at MAX tunnable settings on an SVT and to reduce the Pre-det you've used a complex, ( relative to an air-air IC), system to do it. instead of simply lowering the compression and running an air/air IC. There's a reason why no one but draggers use air/water system. It's not nearly as reliable as air/air IC.
I already covered why a water/air IC is a better choice for the contour application, but I would also like to point out that a properly designed water/air IC system is extremely reliable, and is very often used in OEM applications. Oh yeah, and lowering the compression on a Duratech isn't really that easy or inexpensive, nor is fitting an air/air IC. Of course, if you are shooting for more than 350hp, then yeah, the lower compression is required to keep the dynamic compression ratio in check.
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with My TT kit the first thing I will reccomend for those that wish to run over 7 psi on an SVT is to change out the slugs for lower compression.
Good, finally we at least sort of agree. Lower compression, yes. Though, I think the SVT even is ok up to ~9 psi with a good tune.
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Then the NA specific SVT setup. Even the bump sticks overlap too much on an SVT for proper boosting.
Also agreed, the SVT cams are not the most ideal for forced induction.
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really? so your saying a closed loop system will somehow bleed off line pressure ?? Your logic escapes me on this? Does your SF setup somehow loose internal pressure when your shifting or at idle ??
No, he is referring to losses due to fluid flow in pipes, a simple fluid mechanics principle. Its too bad logic escapes you
(your words, not mine)
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mine doesn't spoll time is spool time and a TT needs far less time to spool but a single turob, if trimmed out right, should not need more then a fraction of a sec to bring the system up to full boost once it's been charged already..
On a small displacement engine like the duratech, I highly doubt the spool time is much different from a BB T28 to twin T03s, in fact, unless the T03s have really small turbine housings, then I'm betting they would take longer to spool (not to mention that normal size T03s would be capable of supporting waaay more power than the block or con rods or pistons could support, and possibly the crank)
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a racial/nationailty slur how quaint.
Wow, I wasn't aware that Canadian was now its own race, I was always under the impression that Canadians, like the British were lumped in with the rest of us white folk . . .
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My comment on the Turbo was aimed at seeing the real numbers for the base kit offered not the upgraded kit dyno..
Again, there is no base/upgraded kit. The std. kit includes the BB T28.
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Speaking of which I saw no mention of how they plan to control pres drop across the turbo oiling system? have they valved the line or are they letting it free flow? if so do they have numbers on the oil press drop in the engine when the turbo is on the engine ??
Woohoo, a real, legitimate question, I've been waiting for one of these
Of course, since I am not involved in the design of the kit, I cannot say for sure what method they have chosen to regulate the oil feed to the turbo, BUT I do know that there are a myriad of very simple and effective ways of throttling fluid flow, and because of this I have little concern over it.
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sorry, but until the TT is ready , NOTHING will be released about it, except what I may use as a comparison point..
How unfair! you can use it as a comparison point, but I can't? I know nothing at all about it, quite unfair
To be honest, I find it hard to believe you have done more than think about what parts you would like to use on the kit, and especially hard to believe that you would have started attempting to package any of the major components yet.
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and why am I going to tell you about my 'custom' turbos? it took me along time to souce, aquire and work with the manufacture to get these.
So, you are using completely custom, one-off turbos? Anyway, I figured you might want to give people a reason to wait for the kit you say is superior to the kit already in discussion, but that's up to you.
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if you looking for info on our kits contact Performance Fords or look to thier website or ours for specific pics/details of some of the kits we've done.
I did look, unfortunately, all I could find were "coming soon" comments on everything, and on your site, the Coming Soon for the zetec kit had a pretty old date, IIRC. I was really hoping to see some detail on the kits you said you have done, and the turbos you use. Oh, all I found on turbos, was standard T03 center sections for sale (btw, what do you charge for the center sections? I may need a pair of them sometime in the near future) and some rebuild kits, also for std T03s.
