Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Common Interests One nation, under Jesus, with Thought Police and facism for all

I think that is pretty evident, don't you?

I think you guys did a fantastic job of making your points and I will print them out and use them at work. My thoughts are two: Firstly, the Pledge of Allegiance is just a pledge. It is not required, and I still maintain that regardless of the repercussions of questioning whether or not "Under God" should be there, this man is looking for one thing--attention and he is getting it in spades. Everyone wants to be famous, this man is about to become infamous.

Secondly, although I agree religion is not a necessary entity to American government, morality and ethics are and should be essential in some fashion. Every country has some basis of religous belief, even the roman empire and greeks had their gods, and was the foundation of all types of governments throughout the world past and present.

However, it's important to remember that instead of bashing congress and others for wanting to maintain the idea of a "God" in our government, maybe this will give everyone an opportunity to instill ethics and morality into the pledge and other sectors of government rather than to focus on banishing the idea of any god much less the "capital G" God.

My opinion..but we all know that opinions are like armpits..LOL :rolleyes:

In 1620, the Pilgrims established the Mayflower Compact before they landed at Plymouth Rock. The document said, "In the presence of God, Amen. We...do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves into a civil body politic."

After reading the initial post, this was the established legal and political cornerstone of the Pilgrims (one could even say a precursor to the U.S. Constitution) that I was going to refer to that definitely takes the wind out of the sails on the initial rushed argument. Again, what documents or constructs do you think the drafters of the U.S. Constitution referred to?

Long before the United States Constitution, the colonies had written documents that established government and citizen's rights under God's authority. The drafters of the U. S. Constitution were aware of these documents and considered them in drafting the document. The expression of America's early documents is unmistakably Christian. They were philosophically anchored in Biblical principles, and the expression of the colonists in these legal documents of what became the states was undeniably Christian. These documents recognized the existence, importance and nature of God.

Superbly stated! The fact is and will always remain that the U.S. as a legal and political entity was from its founding a nation steeped in Christian principle and guidance. Feel free to argue this to ad naseum and back, but it simply doesn't change the underlying truth of this. Even though the U.S. Constitution doesn't mention God or invoke his specific name, there are enough basic principles and rights laid down in it that the blind and deaf could see the roots of Christian canon within it...

John Adams of Massachusetts, a lawyer and the second president, wrote in a letter to Jefferson on June 28, 1813. He said, "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity."

Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world."

And Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

George Washington, the father of our nation said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

James Madison, the fourth president and the Father of the Constitution said, "The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

It is a known fact that many of the founding fathers were Deists to one degree or another throughout their lives. A great many of them were strong Christians as well. I've seen a number of quotes, passages and letters from Jefferson, Adams, Henry, Washington, etc. in the past that could be read either way. Again, this doesn't mean the Deists were rock-solid locked against Christian principles, nor were they philosophicly tied to their innate virtue, either. Again, many of these so-called Deists voiced or wrote about their admiration and respect of Christian doctrine.

So, what does all of this have to do with the Pledge? Even though the words "under God" were added to it in 1954, McCarthyism as a hysterical knee-jerk movement was pretty much over by then (he was censured in 1954 in the Senate by a vote of 67 to 22 in addition of losing his Chairmanship of a Senate Committee), so explaining it off as a reaction to the Red Scare, Part II is a little reckless. The addition of it was supposed to add impact and extended meaning and purpose to the Pledge, not to mention reaffirming the roots and origins of patriotism in the U.S. It wasn't meant to discriminate...

Excellent research and reasoning Ciscoguy. This is about as bullet-proof a post as I have ever seen on this forum. Those intent on preserving the false notions of an entirely "christian" 18th century US government are living a lie. Such a government never existed and we are the free-est nation on the planet, today because of that fact.

The religious and political right that still espouses the amalgamation of government and religion not only have to be dragged into the 21st century; they also need to be dragged through the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries to boot.

Righto, Cisco!

Thanks folks. I'll try to tie up any questions I can tomorrow while I'm at work, but for the moment - I'm dead tired

From NY - signing off.

You guys did all this instead of attending the National Meet? Great arguements, but man, get out and meet the people behind the screens!!!!

TB
Still in TX

This is one of the best Posts that CEG has ever had. The adovates are making good arguments without flaming each other. I really bothers me when someone insults someone else when they don't share an opinion. Way to keep it civilized guys.

Darin

Hey, I made it to the Autocross on Sunday. It was raining, but it was still awesome!

So has anyone ever used the term "AmeriKKKa"?

Just wondered...

Brian