Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Autocross and Open Track R compound DOT tires threatened

There is some in formation at this link that is pertinent to the survival of R compound DOT tires:
http://www.hoosiertire.com/fmvsshlp.HTM
Send your correspondance to the site suggested or Hoosier and other manufacturers may be out of the auto-x business.

Respectfully,
Andy Hohl

Correspendence Sent!

Funny. The discussion around here in KS seems to be "so what?" The DOT spec on the Hoosiers is pretty much a farce, anyway, and if this happens, the most likely result will be that Hoosier will continue to make the same tires without DOT spec, and the SCCA will change the rules to accomodate them.

Do you really want more government intervention in racing?

RogerB,
The more I think about it, I agree with what you are saying. The change is being made to the tire test program because of the people who can't figure out to keep air in their tires, IMO. I was posting this in case anyone wanted to have their opinion heard. The sad thing is that some of the true sticky street tires we now have may not make the cut due to the new test criteria. I will admit that reading the entire document was educational on the test procedures.

Respectfully,
Andy Hohl

The new FMVSS standards will require DOT tires to not only comply with
current standards, but to also pass a low inflation endurance test at the
end of the current DOT test sequence. The original DOT test sequence was
created back in the bias tire days of the 60's. (Yes, that's how old the
test is and it needs to be updated.) The current test sequence is a bit of
a joke. As long as the tire holds air, it will pass the test.

It is my personal belief (not Kumho's) that all of our competition tires
will pass this new test sequence. Kumho's DOT competition tires are
engineered similarly to our regular passenger tire lines. They use a
fabric for the body plies and steel for the belts. Hoosier and Goodyear
use fabric for the body plies but fiberglass for the belt material.
Fiberglass does not lend itself to long term durability. The failure mode
is usually belt edge separation. Hoosier knows their tires won't pass the
new DOT test sequence. They also do not want to re-engineer their tires
because it will cost money to do this.

I believe that the current rules of Touring, Showroom Stock, American
Sedan, and Solo should continue to require DOT legal tires now and in the
future. I am afraid that relaxing the DOT rule will allow tire companies
to design even more exotic race tire constructions in the future. It also
takes away from the spirit of the rules. It'll end up pushing the little
guys, like Kumho, out of amateur racing because we won't be able to keep up
with the competition's technology. This will lead to no one buying our
tires because no one will be able to win on them and will eventually lead
to Kumho pulling out of SCCA racing.

It's sad that Hoosier is putting the fear of increased cost to the end
consumer as a means to getting the racing community to change the current
GCR. Why is it that Kumho can offer DOT legal tires that are competitive,
have a lower price and that can possibly pass the newly proposed test
sequence? I'm sure the competition is also wondering.

Anyway, I'm just adding to the debate. The newly proposed test will be
open for comment until early June. Then the feds will come up with a
decision sometime in September and will make it effective in the next two
or three years. There's plenty of time to worry (and plenty of time for
the other tire companies to get their act together and comply).
---
Rudy Consolacion
Motorsports
Kumho Technical Center
711 S. Cleveland-Massillon Rd.
Akron, OH 44333

Andy,

My first reaction was to rush to Hoosier's aid, and I even sent the damm letter. Needless to say, after hearing more intelligent debate on the subject, I've changed my thinking.

RogerB,
I have always felt that Kumho Victoracers and the Ecsta V700's would pass the tests due to my experience using them as street tires. Yes the tests needed to be changed, but the underlying cause for the change is people not being diligent in their car maintenance, i.e. checking air pressures, IMO. Hoosier makes a great auto-x tire that meets the letter of the rules, now they have to decide if its worth the cost to meet the new rules.

Respectfully,
Andy Hohl

Typical government reaction. Treat the symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself.

The problem is not with the tires, but with all the loose nuts behind the wheel.

How 'bout some improved testing standards for that aspect of the driving experience?

I'm sure most driving tests haven't changed much since the bias-ply tire age either.

For example, a decade ago, the only question I missed on my motorcycle exam was regarding stopping distances. The question was about whether motorcycles could stop in the same distance, less distance, or more distance than cars.

For most modern bikes, the answer is less distance. (Heck, even the drivers manual mentions not to tailgate bikes because of their shorter stopping distance.) Yet the right answer for the motorcycle test was the same distance.

Let's concentrate on the loose nuts behind the wheels Mr G-men, and less on the non-voting "evil" corporations.

Can I get an A-men!?!

TB

Andy, Java (if that is your real name...),

I'm a "small government" man, myself, but let me play a little devil's advocate, here.

Sure, the root cause is inattentive drivers. The Gov response is to go after the folks with the money--the "corporations," rather than address the issue. Well, maybe not entirely.

It's easy to enforce a safety standard on a manufacturer. It's much more dicey and expensive (and some would argue a greater threat to freedom) to enforce safety practices on individuals. Look at seatbelt and helmet laws, for example.

There was a time when cars had metal dashboards, no seatbelts, etc. I suppose you could have argued, then, that the root cause of the fatality rate on the highway was people driving too fast. In fact, that has been the argument of safetycrats (who have been proven wrong, in my estimation) who eventually got their wish with a national (federally imposed) speed limit. And who among us here really wants to see that come back?

Most engineers understand the challenge of designing for the lowest common denominator. They understand that what they create has to be idiot-proofed as much as possible, and that failures, whether operator-generated or otherwise, have to occur in a way that offers the least risk to operators and bystanders. To be successful, the design has to account for the behavioral patterns of the population of intended users. With so much of a car's operation these days being low to no maintenance, many people assume that their tires warrant the same inattention. Failure to maintain proper pressure should result (within reason) in poor gas mileage and shortened tire life--not a blowout or tread separation (which, if you're not attentive to tire pressure, do you really know how to handle?)

I agree that a safer standard is warranted. If Hoosier pulls out of the DOT race rubber market, it will be because they don't want to spend the money to get where Kumho is right now. They will probably stay in business, though, servicing those race classes that don't require DOT spec tires. Perhaps this product line has been a cash cow for them, and that status is threatened.

BTW, I just want to make clear that most of the words in my last post are not mine, but those of a Kumho rep commenting on this issue. I'm not saying I agree or endorse everything he says--I was just putting the info up here to generate further thought and discussion.

I agree with you guys about what the root cause really is. I also agree that better standards should be applied to license holders. But I think what you're going to see more of is "improved standards," followed by more automated tire pressure maintenance. First, sensors to tell the driver when a tire is low. Then, automatic pressure regulation, with an idiot light to tell the driver when the auto system is experiencing a failure. These things are already on some high-end cars, and I think you'll see these trickle down, just like ABS did.