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Originally posted by jthursby:
Originally posted by RT and his SE:
Originally posted by jthursby:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Calling sigma an ass, while you're having your own special little tantrum, seems to make a point different from the one you intended. And do you ever play that pseudonym card on JaTo and TourDeForce?
Are you sure this is where you want this discussion to go?
My e-mail addy is in my profile for EVERYBODY to see. I personally know many CEGers from the SE & beyond, so I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym. Neither have I called anybody an ass to my recallection - unless I was obviously just playin'. I am not now, or ever been, a hateful person. Like so many, I seek answers.
Originally posted by sigma:
I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, ...
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought. Or don't you think I have the smarts to figure out your fancy writin'.
Heh, They can't or wont, they drag the issue out until its something far from it's original intent, eveyone is argueing and the original context of the debate is lost. Like I've been saying TYPICAL behavior. No answers, just smoke and mirrors.
Jim T.
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I said muslim people, not just LOOKING muslim. ALL of them, and if we piss them off, tough [censored].
And this is your solution?
IT WON'T WORK! The reasons why it won't work have been layout to you already but somehow you just can't see it. What happens when they(the terrorists) change the profile? You'll miss them because you're looking through a pin hole and not seeing the whole picture. Do you think they're going to send out a memo?
This question was asked of you before and got no answer so lets try again...how will you spot the Muslim? By name, skin color, summer camp resume, turbans? It is the 2nd largest religion(Islam) on Earth you know. You seem to think this is some great con vs lid debate but it's not so you can put that one to rest.
Here's my answer.
Quote:
No one wants to be inconvenienced by increased security at the airport but in order to be effective the measures have to be applied uniformly across the board.
You have to cast a broad net to catch these people. You won't catch them all but you're much more likely to catch them this way than with a profile. Part of their planning is how to defeat security and a profile is easily side stepped.
Ahh a suggestion finally. The "we may get lucky approach". Thats what it seems we have been doing up till now.
Jim T.
Your reading skills have failed you once again!
Let's make it simple so you can explain your great wisdom to the rest of us lay people.
Question #1
How will you spot the Muslims?
Question #2
What happens when they stop fitting the profile?
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Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought.
You should know. You brought up El-Al yourself, which I've frequently mentioned as doing it right, albeit a bit "further" than you can get away with in the US.
El-Al profiles as part of their system - which you admit works, yet you insist that profiling can't be done to any degree that has been suggested in this thread, and further that the El-Al system cannot be implimented here.
I ask for a solution & you offer one that you freely confess we cannot use. Not much of a solution then is it...
C'mon, Sigma! Throw some meat into the discussion!
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Now now, TourDeForce. You're a bright guy and I respect your, but you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. And perhaps I'm not being clear, but I'm certainly being verbose.
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought.
You should know. You brought up El-Al yourself, which I've frequently mentioned as doing it right, albeit a bit "further" than you can get away with in the US.
El-Al profiles as part of their system - which you admit works, yet you insist that profiling can't be done to any degree that has been suggested in this thread, and further that the El-Al system cannot be implimented here.
I ask for a solution & you offer one that you freely confess we cannot use. Not much of a solution then is it...
C'mon, Sigma! Throw some meat into the discussion!
I never insisted that profiling can't be done to "the degree that has been suggested in this thread". I said that it wouldn't yield anything when done "in the way that has been suggested in this thread". It can be done, it just wouldn't do anything because the type of profiling suggested in this thread is NOT the same type of profiling that El-Al does.
Like I said, profiling works when you know what you're looking for. El-Al's profiling works because they are looking for terrorists. They know what they're looking for and their system is designed to look for it. Looking for Terrorists is not the same thing as looking for Muslims. If El-Al profiled every Muslim on their flights the plane would never leave the ground; yet despite not checking every Muslim or anywhere even close to every one, and despite being the most targetted airline in the world, they have no security problems.
The profiling suggested within this thread looks for Muslims. What does that get you? Nothing. At best it might help find terrorists within the Muslim population if it was executed properly with the proper infrastructure underneath to research people, interview them, and monitor them before and after the security check. That's a dangerous presumption to make, that your terrorists will never change in demographic (although we know that they are) and that your underlying investigative infrastructure is thorough (which is we know it is not).
It's very simple -- Do you want to find Muslims or do you want to find Terrorists? Because that's the fundamental difference between the type of profiling suggested in this thread and the type of profiling done by El-Al.
Quote:
I ask for a solution & you offer one that you freely confess we cannot use. Not much of a solution then is it...
I didn't say we couldn't use it. I said they took it further than we could get away with in the US. Big difference there. We can't have the CIA interrogating people at the Gate, for example, but we could train our TSA agents in psychological profiling and observation techniques rather than them just being Bin Monkeys. Hell I'd be happy if they could find a friggin' knife that I throw into the bucket since I've gotten knives through security more often than not which instills so much faith in the system.
There are certainly aspects we can easily do here in the US without worrying about the ACLU throwing a hissy fit. And some of it will require a slight culture change. Better law enforcement cooperation which is still very lacking years after 9/11 would ensure that the crosschecked records are current and thorough. Having trained security personnel to ask specific poignant questions (that aren't always the same) to gauge reaction should be a basic cornerstone of security, but we only do it in the US on International flights and those entering the borders via car. At least US Customs and Border Patrol tries some sort of observational profiling with their very limited resources, but for domestic flights the TSA might as well be deaf, dumb, and blind.
At this point I'd honestly be happy if we could just get our half-assed "security" system and methods down that we've got right now. But what we really need is a mentality shift akin to the one that El-Al had in the 70's. But, frankly, it's all a moot point because, as long as the TSA is running it, nothing is going to get done. They can't even get something as simple as operating an X-Ray machine down, with people getting guns, knives, stun guns, and Lord knows what else through all the time. We certainly can't expect them to do something that is significantly more complicated.
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If they're at the airport, you're too late and already failed. I suggest concentrating on keeping the terrorists from getting there in ways which preserve the Constitutional rights of all Americans. I would intensify those operations, and yes, leave the current flying experience of the flying public untouched unless you can do something with can prove results.
We need to determine recipies for liquid explosives and then if necessary ban those substances in a targeted manner. Target items that are not what the container says they are.
I liked Jay Leno's monologue. We're banning hairspray, perfume, makeup, and MP3 players. Are we being attacked by Al Qaeda or drag queens?
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
If they're on the plane, you're too late and already failed.
Fixed.
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While I think it is rather impolite to disagree by editing somebody's statement, the least you can do is paraphrase properly by putting the altered part of the quote in brackets.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
While I think it is rather impolite to disagree by editing somebody's statement, the least you can do is paraphrase properly by putting the altered part of the quote in brackets.
lmao are u serious. You sound like a girl. Wait, diva are you a girl?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
If they're on the plane, you're too late and already failed.
Fixed.
Hope that's better.
If you declare defeat if someone with motive arrives at the airport, what's the point in trying to discourage them? Do I have that part correct?
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Well, you still try, but you've lost a very important battle. Now, they could bomb the terminal just as easily as the plane if they don't think they can make it on the plane. Also, in focusing excessively on what goes on the plane, you are causing great stress and inconvenience for everyone else.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Well, you still try, but you've lost a very important battle. Now, they could bomb the terminal just as easily as the plane if they don't think they can make it on the plane. Also, in focusing excessively on what goes on the plane, you are causing great stress and inconvenience for everyone else.
So if we make it easier to sneak explosives onto a plane, they won't bomb it? Of course not. Do you think the only reason they haven't bombed a terminal yet is because the planes are so easy to bomb? Please explain.
Who cares if someone is greatly stressed or inconvenienced if it might prevent one death? If the security measures at the airport cause such stress in some people, perhaps they are not fit to fly.
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