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Originally posted by jthursby:
But still no better ideas from you huh sigma? Just attacks and name calling? Figures, who's the ass now? Thats right you. Just attack ideas you don't like while offering NOTHING else. Typical.
Jim T.
PS its easy to be an ass when you hide under the cloak of a pseudonym. 
First of all, it is a logical fallacy to believe that because someone recognizes some plan as, erm, stupid, that they must have a "better" alternative plan to propose.
Secondly, You must be more stupid than I thought. Does your reading comprehension suffer when sentences extended beyond 10 words? Would it help if I broke my admittedly long-winded posts into chapters so you have time for a juice break? I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, but at this point I'm not sure you would actually read and understand it nor do I think I could draw enough pretty pictures to help you out.
PS I don't see how going by "sigma" rather than "Mark" makes any difference in what I say, but I make no secret of my "real" identity and lots of people here either know me personally or at least know my real name.
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Man, who gives a crtap about who's offended and who's singled out.
When I travel I want to make sure I don't end up as hamburger at 30,000ft. So check everyone and anyone you thiuk looks, acts, smells or sounds suspicious.
It's the over-zealous liberal POV that some of you guys stand for, that is hated by these bastards. So you guys crying about "fairness" as a right of everyone, will and is being used against you to kill you. Kind of oxymoronic if you ask me.
To effen bad if you look like a suspect - you wanna fly - deal with the consequences.
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I'm not concerned about offending people, but I am concerned with our government discriminating against certain people (more than they already do). I also believe that we need to really study the safety improvements for actions versus the harm they cause to people BEFORE we just implement them knee-jerk.
You must treat everyone equally and interfere with their lives as little as possible. I think banning beverages and making people check basic toiletries is excessive, and nobody really studied the added safety before implementing it.
That is not coming from a liberal point of view, but a libertarian one.
Fine. No studied added security benefits - granted. My questions for you then are:
1. Given the circumstances, what were the potential benefits of the policy - at least short term?
2. While a study of the proposed new policies is going on, do you shut down the airports? For how long? At what cost? Or do you maintain the status quo which would have done NOTHING to stop a potential follow up terror effort?
3. Given the possibility of a potential follow up terror effort, what do you suppose are the potential concequences of NOT implementing the policies cited?
4. What is the better system you propose? That is something we're all interested in.
I don't care about what will NOT work. I want to know what WILL work.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by Stazi:
Man, who gives a crtap about who's offended and who's singled out.
When I travel I want to make sure I don't end up as hamburger at 30,000ft. So check everyone and anyone you thiuk looks, acts, smells or sounds suspicious.
To quote Ron White, "If I'm standing in line behind someone to get on a plane and they need two buckets of phlegm to say their name, I'm checking their shoes for fuses, and I don't care who sees me do it!"
BrApple-its all in the way it is presented...but everythign on my resume is all me
TexasRealtor-I hope you spelling improves on your resume.
MxRacer-ladies and gentlemen, welcome to ironyville. population, texasrelator.
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Originally posted by Stazi:
Man, who gives a crtap about who's offended and who's singled out.
When I travel I want to make sure I don't end up as hamburger at 30,000ft. So check everyone and anyone you thiuk looks, acts, smells or sounds suspicious.
It's the over-zealous liberal POV that some of you guys stand for, that is hated by these bastards. So you guys crying about "fairness" as a right of everyone, will and is being used against you to kill you. Kind of oxymoronic if you ask me.
To effen bad if you look like a suspect - you wanna fly - deal with the consequences.
Exactly.
Heres' the part I don't get. If we aren't profiling, how do we know it doesn't work? Some people sure think it wouldn't work, but how can we know it won't work unless we try it for a period of time? It makes sense to me to try every tool in the box and see if they all aren't effective to a measure of degree. Arguing that we shouldn't alter our tactics in this way or that because the terrorists can alter their's is a moot point. We want to make the whole process of killing people more difficult for the terrorists. If they have to look differently, use more sophisticated weapons, recruit 15 year old white chicks(  ), all the better. It makes it harder for them to succeed and easier for them to screw something up. Think about it, it used to only take a pair of boxcutters to kill 2,000 people. Now it's not that easy.
And here's my flame bait: The terrorists profile against us. Don't we have the right to profile against them if it might save someone's life? Don't we have an obligation to our citizens and our guests who travel here to do everything we can to prevent even one death?
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Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Calling sigma an ass, while you're having your own special little tantrum, seems to make a point different from the one you intended. And do you ever play that pseudonym card on JaTo and TourDeForce?
Are you sure this is where you want this discussion to go?
My e-mail addy is in my profile for EVERYBODY to see. I personally know many CEGers from the SE & beyond, so I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym. Neither have I called anybody an ass to my recallection - unless I was obviously just playin'. I am not now, or ever been, a hateful person. Like so many, I seek answers.
Originally posted by sigma:
I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, ...
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought. Or don't you think I have the smarts to figure out your fancy writin'.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Calling sigma an ass, while you're having your own special little tantrum, seems to make a point different from the one you intended. And do you ever play that pseudonym card on JaTo and TourDeForce?
Are you sure this is where you want this discussion to go?
My e-mail addy is in my profile for EVERYBODY to see. I personally know many CEGers from the SE & beyond, so I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym. Neither have I called anybody an ass to my recallection - unless I was obviously just playin'. I am not now, or ever been, a hateful person. Like so many, I seek answers.
Originally posted by sigma:
I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, ...
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought. Or don't you think I have the smarts to figure out your fancy writin'.
Heh, They can't or wont, they drag the issue out until its something far from it's original intent, eveyone is argueing and the original context of the debate is lost. Like I've been saying TYPICAL behavior. No answers, just smoke and mirrors.
Jim T.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats".--H.L. Mencken
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Originally posted by jthursby:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Calling sigma an ass, while you're having your own special little tantrum, seems to make a point different from the one you intended. And do you ever play that pseudonym card on JaTo and TourDeForce?
Are you sure this is where you want this discussion to go?
My e-mail addy is in my profile for EVERYBODY to see. I personally know many CEGers from the SE & beyond, so I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym. Neither have I called anybody an ass to my recallection - unless I was obviously just playin'. I am not now, or ever been, a hateful person. Like so many, I seek answers.
Originally posted by sigma:
I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, ...
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought. Or don't you think I have the smarts to figure out your fancy writin'.
Heh, They can't or wont, they drag the issue out until its something far from it's original intent, eveyone is argueing and the original context of the debate is lost. Like I've been saying TYPICAL behavior. No answers, just smoke and mirrors.
Jim T.
Quote:
I said muslim people, not just LOOKING muslim. ALL of them, and if we piss them off, tough [censored].
And this is your solution?
IT WON'T WORK! The reasons why it won't work have been layout to you already but somehow you just can't see it. What happens when they(the terrorists) change the profile? You'll miss them because you're looking through a pin hole and not seeing the whole picture. Do you think they're going to send out a memo?
This question was asked of you before and got no answer so lets try again...how will you spot the Muslim? By name, skin color, summer camp resume, turbans? It is the 2nd largest religion(Islam) on Earth you know. You seem to think this is some great con vs lid debate but it's not so you can put that one to rest.
Here's my answer.
Quote:
No one wants to be inconvenienced by increased security at the airport but in order to be effective the measures have to be applied uniformly across the board.
You have to cast a broad net to catch these people. You won't catch them all but you're much more likely to catch them this way than with a profile. Part of their planning is how to defeat security and a profile is easily side stepped.
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Originally posted by RT and his SE:
Originally posted by jthursby:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Calling sigma an ass, while you're having your own special little tantrum, seems to make a point different from the one you intended. And do you ever play that pseudonym card on JaTo and TourDeForce?
Are you sure this is where you want this discussion to go?
My e-mail addy is in my profile for EVERYBODY to see. I personally know many CEGers from the SE & beyond, so I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym. Neither have I called anybody an ass to my recallection - unless I was obviously just playin'. I am not now, or ever been, a hateful person. Like so many, I seek answers.
Originally posted by sigma:
I'd actually create a bulleted list of what my "better ideas" (IMHO) were, ...
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought. Or don't you think I have the smarts to figure out your fancy writin'.
Heh, They can't or wont, they drag the issue out until its something far from it's original intent, eveyone is argueing and the original context of the debate is lost. Like I've been saying TYPICAL behavior. No answers, just smoke and mirrors.
Jim T.
Quote:
I said muslim people, not just LOOKING muslim. ALL of them, and if we piss them off, tough [censored].
And this is your solution?
IT WON'T WORK! The reasons why it won't work have been layout to you already but somehow you just can't see it. What happens when they(the terrorists) change the profile? You'll miss them because you're looking through a pin hole and not seeing the whole picture. Do you think they're going to send out a memo?
This question was asked of you before and got no answer so lets try again...how will you spot the Muslim? By name, skin color, summer camp resume, turbans? It is the 2nd largest religion(Islam) on Earth you know. You seem to think this is some great con vs lid debate but it's not so you can put that one to rest.
Here's my answer.
Quote:
No one wants to be inconvenienced by increased security at the airport but in order to be effective the measures have to be applied uniformly across the board.
You have to cast a broad net to catch these people. You won't catch them all but you're much more likely to catch them this way than with a profile. Part of their planning is how to defeat security and a profile is easily side stepped.
Ahh a suggestion finally. The "we may get lucky approach". Thats what it seems we have been doing up till now.
Jim T.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats".--H.L. Mencken
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Quote:
Heres' the part I don't get. If we aren't profiling, how do we know it doesn't work? Some people sure think it wouldn't work, but how can we know it won't work unless we try it for a period of time?
Um, we are profiling. And how do we know it doesn't work? We were profiling before 9/11. Didn't work so well, did it?
The difference is that we didn't profile on something as open-ended and ultimately useless as whether or not a person is Brown. We profile based on criminal activity, suspicious movements, and other items that directly relate to crime. But even those capabilities are limited by a lack of law enforcement cooperation and some civil liberties laws that make some things like finances and unususal spending or purchasing habits unattainable. And ultimately limited by the fact that even "good guys" with no records can commit heinous crimes.
And what did the terrorists do? They adapted.  . They went through pains to ensure that the people they hired stayed out of trouble. The started revruiting within a nation and limited movements that might arouse suspicion. They knew the profile and they altered their tactics to bypass it. It's how they got 9/11 done. It's how Richard Reid got a bomb on the plane inside his shoe. And it's how these British guys would have gotten their bombs on their planes.
Quote:
Think about it, it used to only take a pair of boxcutters to kill 2,000 people. Now it's not that easy.
"Not that easy"? Now it only takes a sport drink and an iPod. Sounds pretty damned easy to me. We got damned lucky that one wasn't carried out thanks to that tip from Pakistan.
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Let's have it. I've been asking for this information from ANYBODY who would denounce profiling, and I've done it in a civil manner, I thought.
You should know. You brought up El-Al yourself, which I've frequently mentioned as doing it right, albeit a bit "further" than you can get away with in the US.
This will be verbose, the last paragraph has the short and sweet of it...
El-Al does profile, yes, albeit in a completely different way than people here of thinking when they think of profiling. I don't have an issue with profiling. I have an issue with thinking that profiling is actually going to catch anyone. That's not what profiling does. Profiling doesn't catch people, it simply says "there's something unusual with this one" and sets it aside for closer look. There's nothing unusual about a Muslim on a flight or a guy named Ahkmed. There is something unusual about a bunch of passengers of varying last names who all specifically request seats in an area of the plane well-hidden by a bulkhead. Profiling would set them aside for further questioning and more in-depth look to see if there's any commonalities amongst those passengers. It doesn't go, "Hey, you, Muslim, Step Aside." Not because that would offend Muslims, because you have a finite amount of time and resources and if your profile focuses on the Muslim guy it ignores those guys who really are illustrating potentially suspiscious behavior.
El-Al doesn't profile based primarily off the way a person looks. Whether they're Muslim or not. Or what they're last name is. Those are factors in the algorithm yes, but the meat of their system looks at criminal history, past travel arrangements, any unusual discrepancies in your financials. Passenges are subjected to interviews by trained personnel looking for anything remotely suspiscious. Most importantly every single passenger is subjected to the same profiling routine. White people or people with the last name of Smith don't get a free pass simply because they're White.
There is a very significant root difference between the way that El-Al does security and the way that the TSA does security. The difference is that the TSA is looking for something and El-Al is looking for someone.
Looking for a weapon, looking for a Muslim, looking for a Brown guy, it's all looking for something. Things change easily. You change the weapon to whatever they're not looking for at the time. You choose people that don't match the profile.
But people are much more difficult to change. Fundamentally there are certain characteristics between terrorists that are MUCH less likely to change than what color a person is. Trained psychological profilers, as opposed to the incredible bureaucratic inefficiency and display of retard-dom that is the TSA, can pick these behaviors out based on responses to questions or how a person acts/reacts.
Terrorists can be White, Black, or Brown. Might have Muslim last names or might not. Might be Muslim might not. Might even be female. The might have boxcutters, bombs, guns, or even laced sport drinks. But they're all farking nutjobs. You can change to recruiting teenage white girls, but you're still gonna have to find one that's a wacko, that shares the same inherent characteristics of the Muslim men you could have gotten, if you want her to do the same thing.
Does it work? Well, the most targetted airline in the world hasn't had a single terrorist attempt since they changed the way they thought of security.
Plain and Simple: Start looking for wackos and nutjobs, stop just looking for bombs that are obviously changing faster than you even know what to look for, and don't start looking for a "profile" that can also change faster than you even know what to look for.
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