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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
... and you're tromping all over people's rights and any form of ethical fairness while you are at it.
I'm talking about saving human life. Screw fairness!
I think holding on to high ethical principles is important, so important that if a few additional people die, so be it. However, I don't see profiling saving any lives.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Moussaoui is a common Muslim name in Western Europe and Morocco, those of Moor descent.
Fixed.
It doesn't matter if it sounds Muslim or not. If it is a Muslim name, "common sense profiling" should be used.
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Moussaoui is a common Muslim name in Western Europe and Morocco, those of Moor descent.
Fixed.
It doesn't matter if it sounds Muslim or not. If it is a Muslim name, "common sense profiling" should be used.
So now you're "profiling" as extended from people are who Muslim, but realising that's impossible to determine, we've branched out to people with either Muslim-sounding names or people with Muslim last names whether they're actually Muslim or not. What about people with Muslim first names? Maybe Omar Smith?
And what about women? You want to target all Muslims, and all those with Muslim or Muslm-sounding names. But there's been no Muslim women arrested for terrorism. If you wanna really "profile", statistically-speaking a White Male is more likely to be a terrorist on a plane than a Woman with a Muslim last name. So, what then? Ignore the same statistics because we don't like what they say?
And then we still realize that we're going to miss at least 1 in 5 of them because, even now, 1 in 5 of these terrorists don't look Muslim and don't have Muslim or Muslim-sounding last names (or first names for that matter).
So all that needs to be done is either bring in 5 times as many people as you need so you can ensure that you still have as many as you need when the 1 in 5 make it through.
Or you do the much easier thing and bring in people that don't meet the profiling criteria.
I, personally, don't have a problem with profiling. But profiling in cases like these simply won't work. In terrorism the people actually doing the dirty work are just pawns. They're disposable, constantly changing, and can be anyone from anywhere -- it's just convenient right now for them to be largely Brown, Arabic descent, Muslim males because they're a dime a dozen. Profiling can work to catch the masterminds which aren't disposable and aren't dynamic, but it won't work to catch the guys doing the dirty work. The guys doing all the hard planning, the ones serious about what they intend to do, can go out tomorrow and find a bunch of teenage white girls to do what they want or whatever other group of people isn't going to have a high chance of being caught by a profile net. Sure, it'd be a little harder to find a white girl that'll do it versus the millions of muslim men that would
It's no different than changing your tactics when you can no longer get explosives on a plane -- you simply make a little change and disguise them in liquid drinks. It's called resourcefulness and adaptation. It's what terrorism is about. They're experts at it. They can change tactics just as easy, if not easier, than change initiates against them.
And what if we did profile? The tactics change more rapidly than we know to even look for them. Say we profiled and all these Muslim guys got to the Airport and were pulled aside. They were searched, asked some questions by some retarded TSA guy who had no real psychological training who may have noticed anything odd even if these guys weren't that good at hiding, nothing abnormal was found, and they boarded the plane. They then detonated their explosive sport drinks and killed a bunch of people. No one would have ever thought to run their sport drinks through any tests. They were just drinks. Profiling wouldn't have stopped anything from happening. Profiling doesn't stop people from doing something, it simply allows you an extra opportunity to catch them beforehand. But if you don't know what you're looking for it doesn't do a thing for you. We got lucky this time -- we knew what to look for before it was too late because of some tip-offs from Pakistan. It could have just as easily turned out much worse and we wouldn't have learned what to look for until too late, provided we ever did learn what they did to blow the planes up.
If not for the tips from Pakistan on who/what to look for, profiling or not, these guys would have boarded their planes, sport drinks in hand, and blew every one of them from the sky.
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I have a 15 year old white girl and I can tell you no I repeat NO amount of coaxing would make her do anything beyond go to the mall, buy clothes and surf pervspace. I think you are wrong in that assumtion. And it is a BROAD assumtion on your part not anyone elses. You think that terrorist can recruit non-islamic people to go blow themselves and others up? What is the promise?, all the latte's and chino's they want? That assumtion is insane. You have to be born into western hatred to ever contemplate doing something so stupid. most of us were not. Thats blame passing instead of looking at a core solution. Sounds like your idea is "there isn't much we can do except put a complete halt to our own lives so that nobody gets offended" approach to terrorism.
Thats a big stinking pile and you know it.
Jim T.
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I think profiling is OK. I've taken 4 flights since 9/11 and I got picked out of the crowd and searched before boarding the flight. I carry a lot of paperwork with directions, addresses and telephone numbers. I carry the paperwork with me because I would be lost without it.
One flight from Salt Lake City to Denver flew into a storm. The plane felt like it was being tossed around like a toy but it didn�t fall apart.
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Originally posted by jthursby:
I have a 15 year old white girl and I can tell you no I repeat NO amount of coaxing would make her do anything beyond go to the mall, buy clothes and surf pervspace. I think you are wrong in that assumtion. And it is a BROAD assumtion on your part not anyone elses. You think that terrorist can recruit non-islamic people to go blow themselves and others up? What is the promise?, all the latte's and chino's they want? That assumtion is insane. You have to be born into western hatred to ever contemplate doing something so stupid. most of us were not. Thats blame passing instead of looking at a core solution. Sounds like your idea is "there isn't much we can do except put a complete halt to our own lives so that nobody gets offended" approach to terrorism.
Thats a big stinking pile and you know it.
Jim T.
Yeah, I know a Muslim that won't attack the US, therefore the same must old true for all of them, right? Yeah, a sample of one proves your point.  Talk about a big stinking pile.
Did you miss the part where all but 3 of the terrorists arrested in Britain last were were born in Britain, and all of them had been raised there? That 4 of them were White guys? No one thought little 21-year old Don Stewart would be capable of something like that either. But he was.
Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were Europeans that, while they did have a long-standard hatred of the US, they were not "born into" Western hatred. What's your excuse there?
There are hundreds of millions of people throughout the world that hate the US. And yes, while 95% of them may look a certain way, there's a small group that provide a wealth of options. Do you seriously believe that there aren't White people that hate the US? That women aren't at least a small part of that group? It doesn't take millions to bring down a plane, it only takes one. We don't need a huge group. Are you seriously so deluded that you think someone couldn't easily find a person, even a few dozen, of any background, of any sex, of any race, that would be willing to do whatever anyone wanted them to? They don't even have to hate the US they just have to be someone with enough hatred for the world to do something so vile.
Young people in particular are very susceptible to what amounts to brain-washing. In a small amount of time you can make a disenchanted teenager think and do damn near whatever you want. That's why al Qaeda is eating up these teenage converts to Islam.
Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson. Just a few names off the top of my head to display what the power of suggestion and a relatively small amount of time can do for you. Any one of those guys could have had their followers kill planeloads of people and it would have unquestionably been done. And probably have been done by a Young White Woman.
If you seriously are so deluded in your belief that only brown Muslim people want to commit heinous crimes then you might want to call up the British police and tell them to release Oliver Savant, Don Stewart, and Brian Young. Surely they had nothing to do with all this recent hub-bub in Britain. I mean, they're White for chris'sakes. Everyone knows white guys don't do stuff like that. :rollseyes:
Quote:
Sounds like your idea is "there isn't much we can do except put a complete halt to our own lives so that nobody gets offended" approach to terrorism.
And it sounds like you've got a reading comprehension problem. I said I didn't have a problem with profiling, so stop assuming that because someone doesn't like your profiling nonsense that you need to reply with some drivel about how they must be some "PC liberal" and try actually addressing the point. This might be difficult for you to understand but I simply want a plan that works. Or at least works better. Not a plan with gigantic gaping holes you could walk a blind elephant through like the "If only we could profile we could solve all our problems" plan.
If you want to profile, fine, I don't care. But it won't mean a damn thing when it's all conducted and ran by the semi-retarded, lucky-if-they've-got-a-GED, couldn't-make-it-through-police-academy, TSA guys we've got now who can't pronounce psychological profiling or interrogation process, let alone actually do it, and when the other 99% of passengers that don't meet the "profiling criteria" get hustled through some of the laxest "security" known to man.
There's a reason why El-Al, the most secure airline in the world, focuses less on profiling and more on every passenger on the flight. While some people are filtered out and more rigorously checked everyone gets checked in a manner that we wouldn't even do to the ones we did pull out due to profiling. Because, when push comes to shove, we're still more worried about how expensive and time-consuming such an operation would be rather than how much safer it might make us; and we don't want Americans to be interrogated before every flight. God forbid we hurt someone's feelings.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Moussaoui is a common Muslim name in Western Europe and Morocco, those of Moor descent.
Fixed.
It doesn't matter if it sounds Muslim or not. If it is a Muslim name, "common sense profiling" should be used.
So now you're "profiling" as extended from people are who Muslim, but realising that's impossible to determine, we've branched out to people with either Muslim-sounding names or people with Muslim last names whether they're actually Muslim or not. What about people with Muslim first names? Maybe Omar Smith?
And what about women? You want to target all Muslims, and all those with Muslim or Muslm-sounding names. But there's been no Muslim women arrested for terrorism. If you wanna really "profile", statistically-speaking a White Male is more likely to be a terrorist on a plane than a Woman with a Muslim last name. So, what then? Ignore the same statistics because we don't like what they say?
From the USA Today article "Most of those named in the list were London residents. All had Muslim names, many of which are common in Pakistan. The youngest person was 17, the oldest 35."
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Moussaoui is a common Muslim name in Western Europe and Morocco, those of Moor descent.
Fixed.
It doesn't matter if it sounds Muslim or not. If it is a Muslim name, "common sense profiling" should be used.
So now you're "profiling" as extended from people are who Muslim, but realising that's impossible to determine, we've branched out to people with either Muslim-sounding names or people with Muslim last names whether they're actually Muslim or not. What about people with Muslim first names? Maybe Omar Smith?
And what about women? You want to target all Muslims, and all those with Muslim or Muslm-sounding names. But there's been no Muslim women arrested for terrorism. If you wanna really "profile", statistically-speaking a White Male is more likely to be a terrorist on a plane than a Woman with a Muslim last name. So, what then? Ignore the same statistics because we don't like what they say?
From the USA Today article "Most of those named in the list were London residents. All had Muslim names, many of which are common in Pakistan. The youngest person was 17, the oldest 35."
You might want to read a bit, rather than just post some excerpts.
They all had Muslim names that they went by.. But the names of the ones I was referring to were still legally the "White" names. For example, yes, Oliver Savant "had a Muslim name" so your excerpt is correct, but he was still Oliver Savant. That's what it would say on his ID, on his passport, on the computer when he checked in, etc.
Speaking of name-changes. What about Muslims that change their names to something "White" like "James Eggermeyer". So I guess we need to revise the criteria once so that it's now: Muslims (if we can somehow determine that), people with Muslim last names, people with Muslim-sounding last names, and people who look Muslim. And we still haven't decided on what to do about the women, correct? And what about those with Muslim first names? What about guys that are clearly white, have white first and last names, but maybe look a little Muslim? You know, they've just got some look about them. Them too?
Man, you keep it up and eventually you'll have us all included in your profiling criteria. And there lies the rub.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by jthursby:
I have a 15 year old white girl and I can tell you no I repeat NO amount of coaxing would make her do anything beyond go to the mall, buy clothes and surf pervspace. I think you are wrong in that assumtion. And it is a BROAD assumtion on your part not anyone elses. You think that terrorist can recruit non-islamic people to go blow themselves and others up? What is the promise?, all the latte's and chino's they want? That assumtion is insane. You have to be born into western hatred to ever contemplate doing something so stupid. most of us were not. Thats blame passing instead of looking at a core solution. Sounds like your idea is "there isn't much we can do except put a complete halt to our own lives so that nobody gets offended" approach to terrorism.
Thats a big stinking pile and you know it.
Jim T.
Yeah, I know a Muslim that won't attack the US, therefore the same must old true for all of them, right? Yeah, a sample of one proves your point. Talk about a big stinking pile.
Did you miss the part where all but 3 of the terrorists arrested in Britain last were were born in Britain, and all of them had been raised there? That 4 of them were White guys? No one thought little 21-year old Don Stewart would be capable of something like that either. But he was.
Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were Europeans that, while they did have a long-standard hatred of the US, they were not "born into" Western hatred. What's your excuse there?
There are hundreds of millions of people throughout the world that hate the US. And yes, while 95% of them may look a certain way, there's a small group that provide a wealth of options. Do you seriously believe that there aren't White people that hate the US? That women aren't at least a small part of that group? It doesn't take millions to bring down a plane, it only takes one. We don't need a huge group. Are you seriously so deluded that you think someone couldn't easily find a person, even a few dozen, of any background, of any sex, of any race, that would be willing to do whatever anyone wanted them to? They don't even have to hate the US they just have to be someone with enough hatred for the world to do something so vile.
Young people in particular are very susceptible to what amounts to brain-washing. In a small amount of time you can make a disenchanted teenager think and do damn near whatever you want. That's why al Qaeda is eating up these teenage converts to Islam.
Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson. Just a few names off the top of my head to display what the power of suggestion and a relatively small amount of time can do for you. Any one of those guys could have had their followers kill planeloads of people and it would have unquestionably been done. And probably have been done by a Young White Woman.
If you seriously are so deluded in your belief that only brown Muslim people want to commit heinous crimes then you might want to call up the British police and tell them to release Oliver Savant, Don Stewart, and Brian Young. Surely they had nothing to do with all this recent hub-bub in Britain. I mean, they're White for chris'sakes. Everyone knows white guys don't do stuff like that. :rollseyes:
Quote:
Sounds like your idea is "there isn't much we can do except put a complete halt to our own lives so that nobody gets offended" approach to terrorism.
And it sounds like you've got a reading comprehension problem. I said I didn't have a problem with profiling, so stop assuming that because someone doesn't like your profiling nonsense that you need to reply with some drivel about how they must be some "PC liberal" and try actually addressing the point. This might be difficult for you to understand but I simply want a plan that works. Or at least works better. Not a plan with gigantic gaping holes you could walk a blind elephant through like the "If only we could profile we could solve all our problems" plan.
If you want to profile, fine, I don't care. But it won't mean a damn thing when it's all conducted and ran by the semi-retarded, lucky-if-they've-got-a-GED, couldn't-make-it-through-police-academy, TSA guys we've got now who can't pronounce psychological profiling or interrogation process, let alone actually do it, and when the other 99% of passengers that don't meet the "profiling criteria" get hustled through some of the laxest "security" known to man.
There's a reason why El-Al, the most secure airline in the world, focuses less on profiling and more on every passenger on the flight. While some people are filtered out and more rigorously checked everyone gets checked in a manner that we wouldn't even do to the ones we did pull out due to profiling. Because, when push comes to shove, we're still more worried about how expensive and time-consuming such an operation would be rather than how much safer it might make us; and we don't want Americans to be interrogated before every flight. God forbid we hurt someone's feelings.
Your right sigma, we are all wrong, go about it your way.  sounds like typical liberal drivel, no matter what anyone says its wrong. You win we all give up.
Jim T.
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Guilt trips are the weapons of 8th grade girls, not politicians.
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