Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Common Interests Premeditated murder in Iraq.

Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:

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Yup, clearly our efforts have all been for nothing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5082470.stm

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Originally posted by Doppelg�¤nger:

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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:

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Why is it going to for sure, 100% be a murder conviction? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty??? Sure, the evidence is stacked against them, but I will always give soldiers the benefit of the doubt.

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It will be a murder conviction because they killed him IMO. Sure, they're innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to them too, but that's just it there is TOO much doubt in this instance. Frankly, I get tired of reading about military abuses.

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It is a great tragedy and blight against the reputation of all professional soldiers in the nations military.
On the other hand....this is war. It is NOTHING NEW.

What makes you think the human of year 2000 is any different from the human of 1500, or 50BC? They killed whole tribes, slaughtered them in the streets. Religious wars between protestants and catholics, the crusades. Is that any different today?

Funny, it is usually the people who are not professional soldiers that commit many of the atrocities you've seen and heard about. This is because most professional soldiers have seen enough to know that properly waged war is about the precise use of military force to back up the interests of the government, minimizing collateral damage yet still remaining lethal, nothing more and nothing less.

Tired of it from soldiers? How did you feel about the looting shooting, rape, and Police officers deserting their posts in the city of New Orleans during Katrina? When the soldiers came with water and food there were A-holes shooting them from the rooftops.
This is human nature unfortunately and it cannot be just expected to be gone from men just because it is the year 2000 and some Granola Bar Yuppie is able to sit in Starbucks (a place I love to sit by the way ), lamenting the woes of the world while he/she brands everyone not in their click as a barbarian! All the while never knowing what it is to want for something, or to compete against other humans for a short food supply, or space, or any basic necessity.

This is real life bud, get used to it. You must be young.
People in America are living in a fantasy land. Of the 150+ countries in the world it is maybe only safe in 10-15 of them...just 10%!!! In all the others you walk down the streets and you may be kidnapped and beheaded by NON-soldiers for some reason you don't even know why....as a crowd of men women and children looks on cheering. And they will think it is justice. What do you think of that?

Just remember that what sets professional US soldiers apart is their core values, and what enforces those values is their discipline. If either of those two are lacking, the latter more than the former, then you may get examples like Abu Ghraib and these killings. But don't be so quick to judge these men until you walked in their shoes. When you walk hostile streets for 365+days with your azzhole puckered tight every day from IEDs snipers, mortars, and RPG fire; when you see your buddies or just darn good men with families at home get blown into pieces....maybe THEN you will have an inkiling of what stresses are on a mans mind. Most people don't snap, but some do. Just like serial killers.
You aren't a judge. A judge may not have walked in their shoes either but you can bet he/she will have far more experience than You at judging guilt. Therefore you can shut up about their guilt UNTIL a tribunal takes place and confirms or denies it.

So if you are tired of reading about the abuses of war and from soldiers, just don't read any human history from ANY culture on earth. And while you are at it make like an Ostrich and stick your head in the sand.

Originally posted by warmonger:

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How did you feel about the looting shooting, rape, and Police officers deserting their posts in the city of New Orleans during Katrina? When the soldiers came with water and food there were A-holes shooting them from the rooftops.

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Originally posted by Honed Diva:

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I don't believe it would create a bigger problem outside of the borders of Iraq. Inside the borders of Iraq is the responsibility of the Iraqi people to form the nation or nations of their own destiny. The problem is that we are trying to do what the people of Iraq need to do, and for us to fix Iraq is simply not possible.

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Thats because you have no concept of a "power vacuum".

What would happen is what is happening now except that after a month of civil unrest with far worse atrocities than the one that started this post, the nearest neighbor Iran, a [censored] nation would make the excuse of coming to the aid of their fellow [censored] (majority in Iraq) their Pretext for invading and setting up a totalitarian fundamentalist goverment. THEN we would have Iran x2 with research into WMD, you know NUKES x2. Then would follow more ethnic cleansings like the Kurds, Bosnia, etc. Not to mention all the state sponsored terrorist camps.
We'd have been back over within 6-9 months of taking out saddam. Better to have pulled what Reagan did to Kadaffee in Libya and strategically bombed them a few times to eliminate potential threats.

Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:

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Originally posted by warmonger:

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How did you feel about the looting shooting, rape, and Police officers deserting their posts in the city of New Orleans during Katrina? When the soldiers came with water and food there were A-holes shooting them from the rooftops.

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This reminds me...I read a news analysis fairly recently, past month or so, that went back to all the reports of that stuff happening in New Orleans, and almost none of the reports, from helicopters being fired upon to rape in the Superdome, could be verified at all. None of the claims that the mayor made could be backed up, almost none of the "on the spot" news reports were very accurate, and if I recall correctly, the scope of the human calamity was generally determined to be overstated. It wasn't a cakewalk by any means, but there were a lot of rumors that took on lives then.

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Sure. There are people, whole nations in fact that said that America just "made up the Holocaust" (The Iranian president comes to mind) and that there were no Jews killed.

Maybe that is exactly what happened there too right?
Trust me that there are pilots here on Ft. Rucker that flew humanitarian missions for these people that came back with firsthand reports. Take that for what you will. I shouldn't have brought that up, but that is a topic for another day.

Originally posted by warmonger:

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Thats because you have no concept of a "power vacuum".

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Originally posted by warmonger:

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Originally posted by Doppelg�¤nger:

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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:

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Why is it going to for sure, 100% be a murder conviction? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty??? Sure, the evidence is stacked against them, but I will always give soldiers the benefit of the doubt.

---

It will be a murder conviction because they killed him IMO. Sure, they're innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to them too, but that's just it there is TOO much doubt in this instance. Frankly, I get tired of reading about military abuses.

---

It is a great tragedy and blight against the reputation of all professional soldiers in the nations military.
On the other hand....this is war. It is NOTHING NEW.

What makes you think the human of year 2000 is any different from the human of 1500, or 50BC? They killed whole tribes, slaughtered them in the streets. Religious wars between protestants and catholics, the crusades. Is that any different today?

Funny, it is usually the people who are not professional soldiers that commit many of the atrocities you've seen and heard about. This is because most professional soldiers have seen enough to know that properly waged war is about the precise use of military force to back up the interests of the government, minimizing collateral damage yet still remaining lethal, nothing more and nothing less.

Tired of it from soldiers? How did you feel about the looting shooting, rape, and Police officers deserting their posts in the city of New Orleans during Katrina? When the soldiers came with water and food there were A-holes shooting them from the rooftops.
This is human nature unfortunately and it cannot be just expected to be gone from men just because it is the year 2000 and some Granola Bar Yuppie is able to sit in Starbucks (a place I love to sit by the way ), lamenting the woes of the world while he/she brands everyone not in their click as a barbarian! All the while never knowing what it is to want for something, or to compete against other humans for a short food supply, or space, or any basic necessity.

This is real life bud, get used to it. You must be young.
People in America are living in a fantasy land. Of the 150+ countries in the world it is maybe only safe in 10-15 of them...just 10%!!! In all the others you walk down the streets and you may be kidnapped and beheaded by NON-soldiers for some reason you don't even know why....as a crowd of men women and children looks on cheering. And they will think it is justice. What do you think of that?

Just remember that what sets professional US soldiers apart is their core values, and what enforces those values is their discipline. If either of those two are lacking, the latter more than the former, then you may get examples like Abu Ghraib and these killings. But don't be so quick to judge these men until you walked in their shoes. When you walk hostile streets for 365+days with your azzhole puckered tight every day from IEDs snipers, mortars, and RPG fire; when you see your buddies or just darn good men with families at home get blown into pieces....maybe THEN you will have an inkiling of what stresses are on a mans mind. Most people don't snap, but some do. Just like serial killers.
You aren't a judge. A judge may not have walked in their shoes either but you can bet he/she will have far more experience than You at judging guilt. Therefore you can shut up about their guilt UNTIL a tribunal takes place and confirms or denies it.

So if you are tired of reading about the abuses of war and from soldiers, just don't read any human history from ANY culture on earth. And while you are at it make like an Ostrich and stick your head in the sand.

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And your name is Warmonger for a reason.

Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:

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Yup, clearly our efforts have all been for nothing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5082470.stm

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