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Hi,
I got this code and is wondering what should I do.
It is a 96 Contour with 2.5L V6 engine at 100K. I have took it in to a local mechanic which asked for 900(parts and labour where the part is 600 which I assume is the pre-cat).
I also tried local Ford dealer which quote me a much cheaper price of 300 or so which I believe is the main cat rather than the pre-cat(as they said they don't know what is bank 1 and there is only one catalytic converter in the car).
Reading the post here, it seems that I can also just try the Berryman's B12 clean up first(I think I would go this route first) and may be the mileliminator.
If I don't change the pre-cat/cat(which one should be the right one to change), what would be the effect to the car, other than that it may fail emission test ?
thanks for any help in advance.
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Welcome Gary  .
Changing the main cat will not fix the P0420 code. P0420 is Bank 1 (firewall side) Precat, and P0430 is Bank 2 (radiator side) Precat.
Yes, I would suggest that you try the Berryman B12 first. If it doesn't help, then the mileliminators ($30 from www.mileliminators.com) will be the way to go. With the mileliminators, the PCM will not turn on the CEL for P0420 and P0430 codes. Note that other codes not related to the precats may still be stored.
As for emissions, if is is a code check (they just plug in the and check for codes), then you should be good with the mileliminators.
If it is a tailpipe sniff test, unless the precats and main cat are in really bad shape, it should still pass emissions test. In the off chance that it fails the sniff test, then you should try changing the main cat (which is much cheaper than the precats). Note that you will need mileliminators or they will fail the car due to the visual CEL being on.
My experience with the installation of Mileliminators
1) Drive up Rhino ramps ($40 at Advance).
2) Disconnect battery negative terminal.
3) Went under and unplugged connectors and then unscrewed both BOTTOM O2 sensors (22mm or 7/8 inch crescent wrench $7. You can buy a O2 sensor socket if you want, $12 at Advance).
4) In the comfort of kitchen table, splice (wire splice connectors $3) the mileliminators to the O2 sensor wires (clear and explicit instructions come with the mileliminators). Tape connection well with duct tape (water in connectors will give you P0136 or P0156 CEL codes).
5) Reinstall O2 sensors to vehicle.
6) Reconnect negative terminal battery
Took me about 1 hour 15 minutes. Vehicle might run rough for a day or so until PCM goes through the OBD II drive cycle again.
Last edited by Tony2005; 06/06/06 01:57 AM.
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."
1996 V6 ATX 96K miles
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Originally posted by gary ng:
Hi,
I got this code and is wondering what should I do.
It is a 96 Contour with 2.5L V6 engine at 100K. I have took it in to a local mechanic which asked for 900(parts and labour where the part is 600 which I assume is the pre-cat).
I also tried local Ford dealer which quote me a much cheaper price of 300 or so which I believe is the main cat rather than the pre-cat(as they said they don't know what is bank 1 and there is only one catalytic converter in the car).
Reading the post here, it seems that I can also just try the Berryman's B12 clean up first(I think I would go this route first) and may be the mileliminator.
If I don't change the pre-cat/cat(which one should be the right one to change), what would be the effect to the car, other than that it may fail emission test ?
thanks for any help in advance.
one thing do not just change your O2 sensor, if you have either P0420 or P0430 best is go a head change catalytic converter. cause I have both code show at 148000 miles, and i didn't clean then i had both catalytic converter change new and also change the O2 sensor the same time, so it will be fresh and clean. even thought that if you clean the cat, after few miles the same code it will show again with out any question to ask. I am not sure how much it will cost for just clean, but the money you use for clean you can add little bit more to have mechanic to put a new one on and it will last you for another 100,000 or more miles. what the P0420 and P0430 is really are Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter *IMCC*. it was a intake manifold with Catalytic converter underneth. always remember on the Duratech V6 has 3 Catalytic converter. when I got my change in the dealer, it was like $750 each include labor, parts and tax. if you just clean it and reset the computer, either way it will still show after few miles later. trust me, i did all those untill now i change both Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by DavidC11:
Originally posted by gary ng:
Hi,
I got this code and is wondering what should I do.
It is a 96 Contour with 2.5L V6 engine at 100K. I have took it in to a local mechanic which asked for 900(parts and labour where the part is 600 which I assume is the pre-cat).
I also tried local Ford dealer which quote me a much cheaper price of 300 or so which I believe is the main cat rather than the pre-cat(as they said they don't know what is bank 1 and there is only one catalytic converter in the car).
Reading the post here, it seems that I can also just try the Berryman's B12 clean up first(I think I would go this route first) and may be the mileliminator.
If I don't change the pre-cat/cat(which one should be the right one to change), what would be the effect to the car, other than that it may fail emission test ?
thanks for any help in advance.
one thing do not just change your O2 sensor, if you have either P0420 or P0430 best is go a head change catalytic converter. cause I have both code show at 148000 miles, and i didn't clean then i had both catalytic converter change new and also change the O2 sensor the same time, so it will be fresh and clean. even thought that if you clean the cat, after few miles the same code it will show again with out any question to ask. I am not sure how much it will cost for just clean, but the money you use for clean you can add little bit more to have mechanic to put a new one on and it will last you for another 100,000 or more miles. what the P0420 and P0430 is really are Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter *IMCC*. it was a intake manifold with Catalytic converter underneth. always remember on the Duratech V6 has 3 Catalytic converter. when I got my change in the dealer, it was like $750 each include labor, parts and tax. if you just clean it and reset the computer, either way it will still show after few miles later. trust me, i did all those untill now i change both Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter.
There is a lot of misinformation in this post. If I have time this evening I'll respond more fully.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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Big Jim, I will take a stab at it.
"one thing do not just change your O2 sensor,"
Correct. Nobody suggested just to change the O2 sensor.
" if you have either P0420 or P0430 best is go a head change catalytic converter."
Yes, this would be a good idea but first he should try the cheap ones first. 5 bottles of Berrymans B12 is about $25. $2000 for both precatalytic converters.
" cause I have both code show at 148000 miles, and i didn't clean then i had both catalytic converter change new and also change the O2 sensor the same time, so it will be fresh and clean. even thought that if you clean the cat, after few miles the same code it will show again with out any question to ask."
Yes, if the precatalytic converters are past its point of usefulness, the codes will appear again.
" I am not sure how much it will cost for just clean, but the money you use for clean you can add little bit more to have mechanic to put a new one on and it will last you for another 100,000 or more miles."
Once again we are talking about $25 as opposed to $2000.
" what the P0420 and P0430 is really are Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter *IMCC*. it was a intake manifold with Catalytic converter underneth."
P0420 and P0430 are for Bank 1 and Bank 2 Precatalytic converters, respectively. They are sometimes listed as Exhaust Manifolds as it is designed and manufactured into the EXHAUST Manifolds.
"always remember on the Duratech V6 has 3 Catalytic converter."
Our V6 Duratecs have 2 Precatalytic converters and 1 Main Catalytic Converter.
" when I got my change in the dealer, it was like $750 each include labor, parts and tax. if you just clean it and reset the computer, either way it will still show after few miles later. trust me, i did all those untill now i change both Intake Manifold Catalytic Converter."
Mileliminators ($30 from www.mileliminators.com) installed correctly will prevent the P0420 and P0430 codes from appearing.
DavidC11, please do not post about P0420 and P0430 codes until you are clear how it works as you are only confusing the CEGers who really need the help. Thanks.
Here is some good reading information.
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/TSB0197HO2SServiceTips.htm
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."
1996 V6 ATX 96K miles
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Million thanks for all the advices and suggestions. I have read http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/TSB0197HO2SServiceTips.htm which is a bit worrying for me as it suggests that instead of the pre-cat, it could be other things that cause P0420/0430 and would it be better off to have the mechanic to check those first(as failing emission is one thing, letting the engine deteriate and may be stalled in the middle of the road is much worse) ? Also, out of my curiosity, if this DTC code is calculated based on the pre and post O2 sensor readings, and that the downstream O2 sensor is after the main cat, how can it know it is the pre-cat(even pinpoint which one) that is the problem ?
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"which is a bit worrying for me as it suggests that instead of the pre-cat, it could be other things that cause P0420/0430"
Yes, which is why the Berrymans B12 is a good first step to try to fix the problem. I tried Berrymans for a few months before I gave up and went to the mileliminators.
" and would it be better off to have the mechanic to check those first"
Unfortunately, it might cost a pretty penny and not take care of the problem. Most times, a mechanic will just change an O2 sensor when they see a(ny) CEL code. The only way to really determine if it is a precat issue is to get a real time scan of the PCM and see what the rest of the engine was doing when the code showed up or was doing before the code showed up. And then analyze the parameters. In your case, your mechanic determined it was the Bank 1 Precat. The dealer made a big mistake in his diagnosis.
"(as failing emission is one thing, letting the engine deteriate and may be stalled in the middle of the road is much worse) ?"
Once again, if it is one of the other reasons for the P0420 code, the Berrymans B12 might take care of some of it. Note that some of the other reasons could also trigger other codes which will then help narrow down the problem.
"Also, out of my curiosity, if this DTC code is calculated based on the pre and post O2 sensor readings, and that the downstream O2 sensor is after the main cat, how can it know it is the pre-cat(even pinpoint which one) that is the problem ?"
OBDII 1996 V6 Duratec and newer.
Upper O2 sensor is before the Precat. Lower O2 sensor is after the precat and before (not after) the main cat.
Bank 1 has one Upper and one Lower O2 sensor.
Bank 2 has one Upper and one Lower O2 sensor.
This is how the PCM determines whether it is Bank 1 or Bank 2.
The PCM will not be able to determine if the main cat is "shot". That will probably be determined when you go for a tailpipe emissions test and it fails.
Edit. If it is a precat issue, the "Rolls Royce" fix is, of course, to change both precats, the main cat and both Upper 02 sensors (it is probably due for new Upper O2 sensors anyway at 100k miles, easier to change it when the precats are not in the car). For that, you are looking at $2700 or so.
Last edited by Tony2005; 06/06/06 08:59 PM.
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."
1996 V6 ATX 96K miles
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ah, that clear things up. thanks again.
Again, out of curiosity, anyone knows what is the point of the pre-cat testing while there is another main cat after that(other than extracting more money from us) ?
BTW, I saw some local mechanics offer fuel system flush service, would that be equivalent to the B12 treatment ?
Oh, I forgot to mention, the O2 sensors have been changed may be 2 times(the last change is about a year ago or so, forgot which one at the moment though) and I don't get other DTC code so I would assume they are still good. But may be it is good idea if I have to change the pre-cat anyway(and assume they don't charge me extra labour for the O2 as they have to go to the same area).
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Originally posted by gary ng:
ah, that clear things up. thanks again.
Again, out of curiosity, anyone knows what is the point of the pre-cat testing while there is another main cat after that(other than extracting more money from us) ?
BTW, I saw some local mechanics offer fuel system flush service, would that be equivalent to the B12 treatment ?
Oh, I forgot to mention, the O2 sensors have been changed may be 2 times(the last change is about a year ago or so, forgot which one at the moment though) and I don't get other DTC code so I would assume they are still good. But may be it is good idea if I have to change the pre-cat anyway(and assume they don't charge me extra labour for the O2 as they have to go to the same area).
I have no idea what was in the mind of the engineers when they put the downstream oxygen sensors (cat monitor sensors) in front of the main cat. It is a mystery to me.
The way the cat monitor works is that after certain driving conditions have been met, the cat monitor in the PCM runs. It checks the readings of the upstream oxygen sensors to the downstream oxygen sensors. What is actually being checked is the switching frequency of the oxygen sensors. A normally functing upstream oxygen sensor is constantly switch from .1 volts (lean) to .9 volts (rich) due to the constant pulsing of the exhaust stream as the different exhaust valves open and close pulsing fresh exhaust into the exhaust system. After exhaust passes through a properly working cat, the pulses are diminished, nearly gone. f when the cat monitor runs, it sees that the downstream sensor is switching at about the same speed, it sets a code and turns on the CEL.
What can cause a false code? Precats not designed big enough. Engine running rich so that the precats are loaded up. Upstream sensor weak so that the difference between the upstream and downstream sensors is not different enough. Dirty cats from a poorly maintained engine. At least these things are what comes to mind.
I have not seen a CEL for cat codes on my car for nearly two years. Prior to that it would come on about once or twice a year. I would clear the code and keep driving it. The first time I saw it, about 50,000 miles or so, I installed the Ford scanner and drove the car and found the upstream and downstream sensors working as designed. About a year ago I had the bank one upstream sensor fail and replace both upstream sensors. Maybe that has made a difference. I don't know. It doesn't run any different.
Every time I have had a smog test (Southern California requires a dyno loaded gas reading) it has had exceptionally low readings. The reading are nearly zero, so I know that all of the cats are working well. From what others have posted, removing the precats and getting tested with the main cat only results in reading that are just below failing.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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I just wanted to ask a question that's related to this but since I've seen that there are a million threads on P0420 I didn't want to start another one! I had a P0420 pulled for catalyst efficiancy in bank one, so I ran a few cans of berryman's, but it stayed, so now I've put on mileliminators, thinking that it would fix the problem, but when I started the car, the check engine light is still on. I haven't had the code read to see if it is still P0420, but before that code there was no check engine light and it's never had a problem before, so... I was just wondering if the P0420 code could still be coming up because one of the oxygen sensors was bad? Thank you for any help! Sorry if I sound like a noob
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