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Originally posted by XKontour98:
You would think with 8.4 Billion in profits in the 1st quarter they could afford to upgrade their refineries on their own! That's 8.4 billion above and beyond all operating costs.
It's not so much the upgrade of refineries that we need as it is a need for NEW (additional) refineries. The last refinery built in the U.S. was built in the MID 70's!!! I seriously doubt we'll see any new ones built though, thanks partly to the associated cost, and partly to the tree-hugger enviro-loons that spout doom and gloom every time there is talk of drilling/refining. JaTo was dead on the money about refining being the bottleneck.
BrApple-its all in the way it is presented...but everythign on my resume is all me
TexasRealtor-I hope you spelling improves on your resume.
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Originally posted by XKontour98:
You would think with 8.4 Billion in profits in the 1st quarter they could afford to upgrade their refineries on their own! That's 8.4 billion above and beyond all operating costs.
They could, but why?
It's clear that we will "soon" be moving away from being as heavily dependent on oil. Considering that it takes twelve years of paperwork and billions of dollars before you can even start building a refinery, the business environment could, and very likely, will be very much different before the project is completed. Couple that with return on capital measured in the decades, and chances are that any new refinery will likely never break-even.
There are a couple refinery projects on the books. They've been working on them since the '90s trying to get through all the bureaucracy. Almost 10 years and no broken ground yet.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
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2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
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Originally posted by MxRacer:
Originally posted by XKontour98:
You would think with 8.4 Billion in profits in the 1st quarter they could afford to upgrade their refineries on their own! That's 8.4 billion above and beyond all operating costs.
why would they?? they have no reason to do so. 
and jato... your comparisons are weak. i have to believe you know better.
Given that it would take over a decade to get through the regulatory hurdles that the idiots at the EPA have put in place, why would they invest in something that gives them an UNCERTAIN single-digit return 10-15 years out when they can sink that same amount of money into bonds today and get a GUARANTEED return in the single-digits?
Even better, why wouldn't they sink that money into low-risk stocks (dividend-paying bellwethers) and probably see a double-digit return across that same period of time?
The price of oil does correlate to the price of gas; it's not rocket-science though many components do go into setting the price. The comparisons, though rudimentary and basic, try to show that Exxon's CEO isn't sitting in Houston yanking on the "screw the consumer" lever next to his mahogany desk.
If you want to b!tch about getting screwed, complain about something valid; yes, the current prices suck compared to where they used to be, but for a society to piss and whine about paying a buck more a gallon for gas (somewhat of a necessity) when they are paying around $100 a month for luxuries like a signal being piped down to their TV's via a satellite link or shot through coax to their cable modems, there's a problem...
Yes, the cost of gas has close to doubled over the past few years; have oil company margins or profits doubled, despite climbing to record levels (only by a few percentage points)?
NO.
The price really hinges on speculation in the energy market; if you want to set artifical price controls, talk to your Congressman about nationalizing all trading markets and see how hard you get laughed at.
The cost of inputs are climbing, but speculation takes into account more than just these hard costs; there are "soft" costs to consider as well and it is a combination of these with the hard costs that are causing the discomfort in terms of price.
Then again, since the average American has debt up to their eyeballs and more interested in getting Oprah piped into their idiot box at home, it's no wonder they can't adjust their budgets to reflect a spike in certain necessities...
JaTo
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Here we go again...
1) Refining capacity has been a PROVEN bottleneck; we have more oil in the chain than we have GAS being produced. Basic supply/demand here.
I don't see ANY shortages ANYWHERE so I don't buy that argument - even the Hurrican Katrina induced gouging was unjustified as it happened THE DAY the hurrican hit, when the gas was already sitting i the tanks at the stations!
Originally posted by JaTo:
2) Gas formulation laws have also taken their toll on prices; we've just gone through a recent switchover that has been a more costly one for refiners. Costs like this have to be passed on to the consumer, unless you can get Congress to open their purses and pay for the changeover...
This new formulation has barely even an effect on the normal formulations we use today - we can you even BUY these new formulations?????
Originally posted by JaTo:
3) Iran is the 4th largest oil-producing country in the world and like Venezuela (another oil behemoth), their ties to the West have "soured" as of late. There is a risk component to the price of crude oil and political instability with one of the world's largest consumers of oil and a couple of the world's largest producers of it tends to SPIKE this component.
There's MANY oil producing nations to offset bad blood with Iran and Venezuela - this is another moot point
Originally posted by JaTo:
4) Speculation is what the price of oil is pretty much hinged upon. Speculators adjust the price that they are willing to pay for oil due to current factors vs. what they feel future factors will be like. Given all of today's factors (summer demand, forumlation changes, political instability, oil supply concerns, etc., etc., etc.), the price has gone UP.
Way to just create another oint using the above points, which I have rebutted.
Originally posted by JaTo:
5) The price of oil and gas per gallon is less than many other liquids that you purchase on a daily basis. If we priced Budwiser out per gallon, you'd be paying around $8/gallon for it. Where is the outrage there?
Last time I checked, no one goes through 20 gallons or wine, beer, or milk a week, not without dying - that comparison is ridiculous!
Originally posted by JaTo:
6) Microsoft makes over 60-70% margin on the software products that consumers typically buy. Exxon and other oil companies on a GOOD day with a commodity such as oil or gas usually make single-digit margins (8% at last look). I don't see people in the streets protesting the margins that biotech firms make or the margins that many SW companies make...
Margins are one thing - actual profit is another - not one industry comes close to the profit that Gas companies are creating! This is because gas is sold in such large quatity, compared to a copy of Windows or a bottle of antibiotics!
Originally posted by JaTo:
7) The US has consistently paid some of the cheapest overall prices for gasoline since automobiles came into existance. There is a tax component that is associated with gas that many other countries inflate beyond belief, but that does NOT change the fact that gas has been a VERY cheap commodity for the US over the years.
This although true, does not JUSTIFY the sudden 300% increase in gas over the last 5 years!!! The last time gas went up 300% it took 20 years!
Originally posted by JaTo:
There is a reason Bill Gates is the richest guy on the planet and a reason that you be hard-pressed to find any "Big Oil" executive on the "most wealthy" list; there's also a reason you will find MANY oil sheiks from the Middle-East on that list, too.
Their are more wealthy sheiks then there are "Bill Gates", once again due to the VOLUME of PRODUCT being sold and the number of sheiks who sell said product comared to the number of big software companies.
Originally posted by JaTo:
In short, quit swallowing the fetid BS that the media tosses out to further sensationalize a hot-button issue. There's reason for concern about the price of oil and gas, but I'm tired of this lemming-mentality that states oil companies are "fixing" prices and "screwing" the consumer here.
THINK, PEOPLE!!!
Screw you....it's out and out gouging and I hope Congress uncovers it and we get back to sane pricing.
PS which gas company do you work for? 
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A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Good thing JaTo came in here to talk us down, otherwise, this thread would be less than perfect.
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Bush signed an executive order yesterday that will suspend the requirement of additives that make gas burn cleaner. This may help gas prices go down, but for me it begs this question: If Bush can order the EPA to stand down on additives, why can't he order the EPA to stand down on new refineries, since the EPA is a roadblock to any new ones.
I'm not saying screw the enviroment, but some of these tree huggers that work with the EPA on rule making live in a warped reality. I believe it is called pinko-communism when you go around saying, "save the trees, save the rainforest, spraypaint SUVs in protest, lets all wear I love earth T-shirts and abandon all modern things because modern things are polluting and therefore bad" That attitude is extremeist and doesn't need to be paid attention to. I'm all for protecting the envioroment, but we have to find a balance between our needs and the enviroment.
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Originally posted by Stazi:
Originally posted by JaTo:
Here we go again...
1) Refining capacity has been a PROVEN bottleneck; we have more oil in the chain than we have GAS being produced. Basic supply/demand here.
I don't see ANY shortages ANYWHERE so I don't buy that argument - even the Hurrican Katrina induced gouging was unjustified as it happened THE DAY the hurrican hit, when the gas was already sitting i the tanks at the stations!
You do realize that the jack up prices to discourage people from going nuts and buying gas like usual, its a deterrant to stave off shortages.
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230.2 WHP @ 6500
237.0 WTR @ 2250
Originally posted by MxRacer:
Originally posted by RawBurt:
I'll be keeping it to myself, until the time comes. It'll be hard to find. 
much like your weiner.
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Originally posted by red99sesport:
Bush signed an executive order yesterday that will suspend the requirement of additives that make gas burn cleaner.
Cleaner but not burn as well so we have to buy more. 
-'96 SE MTX 3L
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You're not getting what I'm saying. They aren't suspending the additives that make it burn better. They are only suspending the emissions improving ones. The gas should burn just as before, but pollute a lot more. We won't have to buy anymore gas than before.
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I furthering on your comment. From what I've read the cleaner burning gas with more ethenol doesn't burn as well & worst mileage as a result.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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