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I won't let it slide. Article 1, Section 10 is completely irrelevant to this discussion as it speaks of limits on state governments, not the federal government.

While there is doubt on the legitimacy of the ratification of the 16th Amendment, it DOES amend Article 1 in that it grants Congress the right and power to tax income without any regard to population or apportionment. Congress was granted a power originally denied. It's really that simple. Later cases, such as Eisner v. Macomber in 1930 uphold the 16th Amendment supercedes Article 1 and grants Congress additional powers not originally granted.

I guess since the words were never amended or repealed, a black person is still only 3/5 of a person as well


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Originally posted by Zoom Zoom Diva:
I won't let it slide. Article 1, Section 10 is completely irrelevant to this discussion as it speaks of limits on state governments, not the federal government.

While there is doubt on the legitimacy of the ratification of the 16th Amendment, it DOES amend Article 1 in that it grants Congress the right and power to tax income without any regard to population or apportionment. Congress was granted a power originally denied. It's really that simple. Later cases, such as Eisner v. Macomber in 1930 uphold the 16th Amendment supercedes Article 1 and grants Congress additional powers not originally granted.




Ahh, the Eisner case (1920). Iâ??m glad you brought it up. The Eisner Case was a stock dividend case; that is a stock from a corporation. It relied on two other cases. Stratton's Independence v. Howbert, and Doyle v. Mitchell Bros. These latter two cases were cases relating to corporations.

Eisner V Macomber 252 US 206,207

â??Income may be defined as the gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, provided it to be understood to include profits gained through a sale or conversion of capital assets ... not a gain accruing to capital, not a growth or increment of value on the investment; but a gain, a profit, something of exchangeable value proceeding from the property, severed from the capital however invested or employed ..."

That a â??corporationâ? may derive income from labor as it utilizes labor in pursuit of profits is entirely correct. However, to say that income may be derived from labor is entirely different than saying that labor equals income.

The Internal Revenue Code (laws passed by Congress) does not define the word â??incomeâ?. That is because the Supreme Court ruled that Congress DOES NOT have that authority. The Supreme Court ruled:

Eisner V Macomber 252 US 189, 405Cr 189 (1920)

"Congress cannot by any definition it may adopt, conclude the matter, since it cannot by legislation alter the Constitution, from which alone it derives its power to legislate, and within whose limitations alone that power can be lawfully exercised."

So, If Congress does not have the authority to define the word "income" by legislation, the IRS certainly does not either.

Look, Iâ??m a reasonable guy. Iâ??m not advocating that we all stop paying our taxes. All I'm trying to point out is Congress and the IRS have abused and overstepped their bounderies and the income tax is only one in an ocean of examples.

What desperatly needs to happen (as Jato has pointed out) is we need to abolish the IRS and go to a simple tax system. A flat tax maybe the answer but I'm open to other idea's as well and I have read many great tax purposals. However, I fear that until the economic conditions become FAR worse for the overwhelming majority of us who are not filthy rich (top 10%), no significant changes to make our tax system fair is going to be made. The wealthy control (cough own) the overwhelming majority of our Goverment and their intrests reign supreme.

Last edited by Icefury; 04/26/06 05:18 PM.

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**Update**

New 15 minute trailer to the movie has been released.

High Resolution (92.4 megs)

http://freedomtofascism.com/trailer/AMERICApromoV1.mov

Low Resolution (37.4)

http://freedomtofascism.com/trailer/AMERICApromoV1_H264.mov

36 minute interview with Aaron Russo now up on google video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5291973427234326281&q=freedom+to+fascism

Multiple Radio Interviews available free for download

http://www.freedomtofascism.com/interviews/interviews.html

If the clip I orginally posted about left you with doubt or simply asking more questions, the answers are now available in the links above.


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Originally posted by Icefury:
If the clip I orginally posted about left you with doubt or simply asking more questions, the answers are now available in the links above.




What if the clip you originally posted didn't make me care?


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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Originally posted by Icefury:
If the clip I orginally posted about left you with doubt or simply asking more questions, the answers are now available in the links above.




What if the clip you originally posted didn't make me care?




We'll Jeb, I don't expect everyone to care. Many people have a conditioned mindset of "if it does not directly disturb my everyday life, I'm not gonna waste time/effort worrying about it". To be clear, I'm not labeling you, just making an observation. Society's overall collective Apathy to public affairs and the people in Washington has allowed a frightening slave like existance (far worse than our current situation) poised to take effect and what's worse, is a mass majority of our society is blissfully unaware of what's "really" going on in Washington and what's really at stake for us all.

Were caught up in these ridiculous pitted archetype of Left vs Right, Democrat vs Republican, Conservative vs Liberal. Two sides of the same coin. While were all busy caught up taking sides arguing and defending our views, focusing on not nessicarly unimportant but smaller and frequently petty issues (gay marriage for example). We fail to identify and address the root of our problems. Meanwhile, our Government with the assistance of elite special interests (Corporations) are destroying and robbing this country, the environment, and our civil liberties with legislation and executive orders at a pace that's never been witnessed right under our noses. Our Congress and Senate with VERY few exceptions are asleep at the wheel, or in the pockets of the elite serving their interests which frequently don't have America's best interest at heart... and thats putting it mildly.

The topics brought up in the movie are problems all of us face and if we don't start caring and taking corrective action immediately, the stage is set for a totalitarian government and the evidence of this is overwhelming and easily seen for those with a open, free thinking, rational mind willing to do the research and discover the truth for themselves. The press remains almost completely silent on these issues that FFTF brings up so the mass public is keenly unaware of what's taking place right under there noses. Hell, most people don't even know the Federal Reserve is a "Private Corporation" who's members are a secretive international group of the worlds most powerful bankers and the U.S. government does not print our money, these Corporate Bankers do and we the public have NO say in it. There's an old clich'esaying that goes "He who makes the money, makes the rules". Is that not true in almost every facet of daily American life? Think it's any different at the top where special interest money all but dominates and rules the decision making and careers of our elected officials?

I know I'm speaking in generalities here, and I apologize for that, but for me to present evidence in a coherent way to support my claims would require a mountain of groundwork that would be largely ignored by those not interested in reading a novel of text which means almost everyone here with few exceptions. The movie does what I cannot do in text. I don't want people to believe me, I'm simply asking people to watch this movie with a open mind and if something strikes you as "unbeliveable", a stretch of truth, or resonates with you, research and discover the truth for yourself BEFORE you make up your mind. This movie is beyond petty archetype politics and serves no one's political agenda like F 9/11 did. It examines and reveals the ROOT of America's problems, exposes the people involved, and brings much needed light to critical issues we all have a personal stake in.


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found this and it looks interesting. I wasnt really looking for it, I just stumbled upon it. I inquire upon the authenticity of the information granted tho





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I've heard that we are taxed 3 or 4 times. There are Cooperative taxes and income taxes. We are taxed again if we invest money (capital gains taxes). If we leave our estate to our children there are estate taxes to pay. We pay sales taxes and property taxes.

It is good that our goverment lets us keep some of our money. Americans have some of the best living conditions in the world but there are a few exceptions.

A person I know died about a month ago because Medicare would not pay $3500 for a medical machine that he needed. $3500 doesn't seem like much money to save a life.

Taxes pay for a lot of things including the roads for free enterprise, police so that some laws are enforced, military so our country is free, and bureaucracy so that our government can maintain so much data (most of which they will never use). Tax money does a lot of good things.

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