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While it was relatively easy to immgrate legally 100 years ago, rules were still in place to prevent potential immigrants from becoming a burden on the people here. People who were lame, completely indigent, mentally retarded, infected with chronic contagious diseases, unmarried and pregnant were all shipped back.
The 25% over poverty is attempting to serve as a similar requirement today. They come here illegally, and then require us to spend huge quantities of already excessive social services dollars to take care of them. This is wrong.
Also, Mexico has long turned a blind eye towards problems with our shared border as long as they restricted their harm to the United States. Whether it be outlaws, marauding Indian tribes, or illegal immigrants, Mexico has pretty much allowed them to do whatever they want as long as they do it here.
That said, I think we need to enforce the immigration laws we have. There is no inherent right to live here. This means we make a defensible border. This means we hunt down and send back those here illegally. This means we require a baby to have one parent here legally before the baby is a citizen.
Is it in our national best interests to make immigration requirements easier? Is it in our national best interests to expand immigration? These are questions that we need to pursue, but do not have obvious answers.
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
I'm certainly not saying that we should make it "easy" to enter the country legally. But we damn sure need to make it easier and cheaper if we actually want to get a hold on our illegal immigration problem.
But if we actually want to get a hold on our illegal immigration problem, we damn sure need to make it easier and cheaper.
You see, I tried making that claim sound non-retarded, but I failed. Do you care to explain how making it cheaper and easier will solve our illegal alien immigration problem?
Ask yourself a very simple question:
Why didn't we have an illegal immigration problem 100 years ago when the population of our nation doubled between 1880 and 1920?
Quite simply because it was easy and cheap to enter the US. Few people want to be here illegally. Most people will take the time to enter legally if it's a viable option as history as shown.
Even as recently as 25 years ago, the illegal immigration problem was practically a non-issue. As the time and money involved in entering legally has grown exponentially, so has the illegal immigration rate in response.
They don't come here illegally because they want to enter illegally. They enter illegally because entering legally isn't an option for them. Not because we don't want them to enter legally, but because the costs and time in doing so, because of mind-boggling amount of bureaucracy created around the process, has made that not a viable option.
The government openly acknowledges that this is a problem. The process is so expensive and so time-consuming and so incredibly difficult to actually go through fully legally, that the government even has a Lottery for Green Cards to entice citizens of under-represented nations to enter the US because few can actually afford to do it the legal way.
Try this one: The Welfare State. You cut off the free health care for illegals, the drivers licenses, the welfare checks, and you would have 50 percent of the illegals pack up and go. In addition, you would slow the influx of new illegals coming because they would not have "the dole" incentive. This is why the illegal alien problem has worsened in the last 25 years.
[long sentance]We don't have an illegal alien problem because legal naturalization is hard and time consuming, we have an illegal alien problem because it is cheap and easy to get welfare and be rewarded for crime once you're here. [/long sentance]
Even the worst of statistics only put 1 in 4 illegal immigrants as receiving the benefit from government-sponsored welfare programs; the vast majority of that in aid to various walk-in clinics, not the type of welfare that most people think of. So at least 3 out of 4 aren't entering to abuse the dole at all, and probably much more don't intend to when entering but end up becoming one of that 1 in 4.
So, at best, you'd only have 25% "pack up and go" if there was no such spigot, and that's presuming that every single one of them decided to leave once welfare was no longer an option, which of course wouldn't happen, because even without welfare almost of them are still better off here than in Mexico.
1 in 6 American households receive benefit from the same welfare programs. And while they of course deserve those benefits, it's clear that illegals clearly aren't coming over here to abuse the current welfare system at significantly higher rates than even Americans themselves are.
As for ZoomZoomDiva, I agree with everything you say. We shouldn't take people in this nation that clearly can't care for themselves. We should enforce our existing immigration laws, and not tolerate breaking them anymore than we do breaking any other law. I just believe that an overhaul of the incredibly dense bureaucracy involved in immigration should be part of the over-arching plan. America shouldn't be a place where only the middle-class and above can successfully emigrate to. Anyone capable of supporting themselves should be able to come here and become a part of our nation with a reasonable exertion of time, energy, and money.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Even the worst of statistics only put 1 in 4 illegal immigrants as receiving the benefit from government-sponsored welfare programs; the vast majority of that in aid to various walk-in clinics, not the type of welfare that most people think of. So at least 3 out of 4 aren't entering to abuse the dole at all, and probably much more don't intend to when entering but end up becoming one of that 1 in 4.
So, at best, you'd only have 25% "pack up and go" if there was no such spigot, and that's presuming that every single one of them decided to leave once welfare was no longer an option, which of course wouldn't happen, because even without welfare almost of them are still better off here than in Mexico.
1 in 6 American households receive benefit from the same welfare programs. And while they of course deserve those benefits, it's clear that illegals clearly aren't coming over here to abuse the current welfare system at significantly higher rates than even Americans themselves are.
You're not reading the statistics correctly. It's not 25% of illegals receive some sort of welfare, it's 25% of illegal alien households receive some sort of welfare. It's safe to assume that when the household leaves, it will have more than one person in it.
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by sigma:
Even the worst of statistics only put 1 in 4 illegal immigrants as receiving the benefit from government-sponsored welfare programs; the vast majority of that in aid to various walk-in clinics, not the type of welfare that most people think of. So at least 3 out of 4 aren't entering to abuse the dole at all, and probably much more don't intend to when entering but end up becoming one of that 1 in 4.
So, at best, you'd only have 25% "pack up and go" if there was no such spigot, and that's presuming that every single one of them decided to leave once welfare was no longer an option, which of course wouldn't happen, because even without welfare almost of them are still better off here than in Mexico.
1 in 6 American households receive benefit from the same welfare programs. And while they of course deserve those benefits, it's clear that illegals clearly aren't coming over here to abuse the current welfare system at significantly higher rates than even Americans themselves are.
You're not reading the statistics correctly. It's not 25% of illegals receive some sort of welfare, it's 25% of illegal alien households receive some sort of welfare. It's safe to assume that when the household leaves, it will have more than one person in it.
If there's, let's say, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants in the US, and 1 in 4 receive some sort of welfare, that's 3,000,000 people, right?
If there's, let's say, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants in the US, in a total of 6,000,000 "illegal alien households" (each illegal is paired with another) and 25% of those households receive welfare, that's 1,500,000 households with an average of 2 illegals in each of them -- a total of 3,000,000 people.
Put 10 illegals into a single household and you've got 1,200,000 illegal households -- if 25% of those households receive welfare, how many total illegals do you effect by stopping their services? 3 million again! You're still at 1 in 4.
Or you could say there's 12,000,000 illegal immigrant households (every illegal has their own unique household) encompassing 36,000,000 people (each illegal is paired to 2 legal citizens, i.e. a child and a spouse) and that 25% of those household receive welfare. You still only have 3,000,000 illegals on welfare (1 in 4), you just have an additional 6,000,000 citizens also getting that welfare. You do make a bigger impact on the welfare system if that family leaves, but you still don't change the fact that 1 in 4 equals 1 in 4.
Whether talking people or households, it's irrelevant as far as the overall percentage of the population that is being referred to (as long as your sample is large enough).
To further simplify, although one is more specific than the other, the statements "1 in 4 people" and "1 in 4 pairs of people" covers the same percentage of the population even though the groups may be different sizes (like 'individuals' and 'households')
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Here is my point. Let's say ma and pa border jumper comes here and has three kids. The three kids are citizens, the partents are not. This constitutes one illegal alien household. They don't get welfare et al for one child, but for three. Again, this is one household. Eliminate the check, and it is no longer enticing for the parents, and three children, to stay. That's five people that would leave the country(two illegal aliens and three citizens), and three times the welfare savings.
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I understand what you're saying. It was one of the examples I gave above. But it doesn't change the 1 in 4 ratio of illegals that collect. It just changes the number that would possibly leave; though in actuality virtually none would. Though 1:4 households receive aid, very few of those households receive the kind of day-to-day living aid that most people think of when they think of "welfare". The vast majority of that aid is given in the form of medical aid almost all through walk-in clinics, because it's one of the few social services available completely anonymously. Cutting someone's medical care, even if it could be done (and it really couldn't without violating some of our basic human rights tenets) isn't going to have them rushing back to Mexico.
I'm all for getting illegals off welfare. Hell, I'm all for getting virtually everyone off it. But that problem is vastly overblown by certain aspects of the media. Food stamps and other direct government payout programs are not heavily burdened by illegals. IIRC, Illegal households account for less than 5% of those collecting food stamps. The whole "illegals having kids to live off the welfare state" thing is way overblown. The American citizens that abuse those programs are a MUCH larger problem in the grand scheme of things, whether or not they 'deserve' to use such programs.
Just to throw one positive tidbit in, it's only fair to mention that more than 5% of the current US military consists of illegal immigrants -- a small sample of those that want to do what they can for our country and become citizens the only way they can since the system is so screwed up. Many of them have even died in Iraq recently, including the first casualty we sustained. I'm not gonna go so far as to call us square or anything, but that's certainly got to amount for something.
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i just can't stand liberals in this country. They want to impeach Bush for doing "illegal" wiretaps that were actually legal for him to do. But when people come into this country ILLEGALLY they want them to stay and say it is unfair for them to be deported or not being able to get a job. Is it me or is there something majorly wrong with that picture?
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Liberals just like to [censored] about everything!!
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
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Originally posted by elraido:
i just can't stand liberals in this country. They want to impeach Bush for doing "illegal" wiretaps that were actually legal for him to do. But when people come into this country ILLEGALLY they want them to stay and say it is unfair for them to be deported or not being able to get a job. Is it me or is there something majorly wrong with that picture?
I wish I could kick Bush out of office for not securing the border. 
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Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by elraido:
i just can't stand liberals in this country. They want to impeach Bush for doing "illegal" wiretaps that were actually legal for him to do. But when people come into this country ILLEGALLY they want them to stay and say it is unfair for them to be deported or not being able to get a job. Is it me or is there something majorly wrong with that picture?
I wish I could kick Bush out of office for not securing the border.
the person you want to blame is clinton.
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