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#1545722 04/19/06 11:09 PM
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I'm sorry to be so confusing.

I didn't completely read Bill J's post. I was seeing things at the time. I was having visions of Capt'n Morgan dancing in my head.

R6 clicking does mean that the start position of the ignition switch is good and the wiring leading to R6 is good. What we don't know is the condition of the wiring between R6 and the starter, and the condition of the contacts inside the relay that allow power to flow from the battery, through the relay and to the starter. Checking the voltage at the smaller wire on the starter will hopefully establish an answer and narrow the search.


I feel sorry for the people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats the best they're going to feel all day - former President Lyndon B. Johnson
#1545723 04/20/06 03:41 AM
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Originally posted by Smitty Smitwagg:
I'm sorry to be so confusing.

R6 clicking does mean that the start position of the ignition switch is good and the wiring leading to R6 is good. What we don't know is the condition of the wiring between R6 and the starter, and the condition of the contacts inside the relay that allow power to flow from the battery, through the relay and to the starter. Checking the voltage at the smaller wire on the starter will hopefully establish an answer and narrow the search.




No problem, thanks for your help.

So is the ignition switch definitely out of the picture?

I tested the voltage on the starter tonight. Big wire has about battery voltage all the time. None of the other ones have any voltage ever, key on or key off.

I have a new relay for R6 that I got at AZone. Unless I did something stupid and fried it (are you supposed to disconnect the battery every time you pull a fuse or relay?) then R6 is not the problem. As I was testing voltages I switched out my stock relay for the new one. Same results.

What next? I don't believe it is the clutch switch but it has not been replaced. I did disconnect the switch itself and put a wire between the contacts and try to start it up. I found the switch that AZone sold me, and it is the rear one, the black one from my photo. Replaced.

Thanks again, I truly appreciate all of the help!

What's next?


MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4
#1545724 04/20/06 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by mean'tour:
I tested the voltage on the starter tonight. Big wire has about battery voltage all the time. None of the other ones have any voltage ever, key on or key off.

I have a new relay for R6 that I got at AZone. Unless I did something stupid and fried it (are you supposed to disconnect the battery every time you pull a fuse or relay?) then R6 is not the problem. As I was testing voltages I switched out my stock relay for the new one. Same results.






Relays are pretty robust, as long as you don't push them to handle more power than they are supposed to and keep them out of the weather like they are in the fuse box then they should last a pretty long time. When you remove or replace a relay you at least want to make sure that the circuit they are part of is turned off and in the case of R6, if the ignition was off then there was no power in the circuit. But, as a rule of thumb for when you do any electrical work on a car or anywhere for that matter you always want to make sure there is no power. Disconnecting the batter is the fail proof way of making sure there is no power in the car.

The only time there will be voltage at the small wire on the starter is when the ignition switch is turned all the way like you are going to start the engine. There will be no voltage in this wire if the key is just in the run or on position.

Almost battery voltage at the big wire on the starter probably means that it is just fine. The slight difference is probably becasue of the spot where the negative prong of the meter was put to for a ground wasn't perfectly clean.

Last edited by Smitty Smitwagg; 04/20/06 11:29 AM.

I feel sorry for the people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats the best they're going to feel all day - former President Lyndon B. Johnson
#1545725 04/20/06 12:33 PM
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So that being said, should I go get another relay? I did just pull it a few times while testing (Prior to last night). Just not thinking.

I did test the small wire as my wife was turning the key to try and start the car. Nada. What does that mean? I forgot to do ElKy's ohm test.

Anyone have any ideas what I should test next?

Should I be ordering a replacement Neutral/ clutch switch? New R6 relay? Testing/ replacing the ignition switch? What about PATS? Pop starting it and taking it to the mechanics? (If it will run even then, which I'm not sure of).

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I am a little. Not at you guys, just at the car and the situation. Luckily the weather was nice for my bike commute this morning.

Thanks again.


MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4
#1545726 04/20/06 02:18 PM
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ok if there is no current to the little wire when the key is turned to start, but R6 is clicking, then it is a wiring issue form R6 to the starter solenoid.
did you clean the end of the wire before you put it back on the starter?
can you trace the wire back to where it originates?

as jay said, check the contacts where the relay plugs in.

maybe the output wire from the relay is crap.


NY State Trooper: So what makes your car so special to have SVT all over it? Me: Er...It was made by Fords SPECIAL Vehicle Team?
#1545727 04/20/06 03:00 PM
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I did the best that I could to clean the wires to the starter before reinstalling them, but it is tight in there. I tried to get any crap off with a little wire brush and I coated the end with dielectric grease.

I remembered something else.... Tell me if this might be related.

Before (obviously) if I drove somewhere, then parked ran in and back out quickly and restarted the car, there would be a weird smell in the compartment for a minute or two. Didn't smell like anything burning, just something hot or something... I'm not sure how to describe it.

I will try to follow the wire from the fuse box to the starter. What am I looking for? Exposed wires, melting, etc?

Thanks again.


MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4
#1545728 04/20/06 05:18 PM
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really?
yeah, if you can find some melted wires or anything thats a great place to start.


NY State Trooper: So what makes your car so special to have SVT all over it? Me: Er...It was made by Fords SPECIAL Vehicle Team?
#1545729 04/20/06 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by ElKy da Stalker:
really?
yeah, if you can find some melted wires or anything thats a great place to start.




Elky, Who are you stalking?

Can anyone narrow down the possibilities for me?

Should I be getting a Clutch safety switch?
Ignition switch?
Any idea how to test PATS?
I'll look at the relay to starter wiring tonight, I hope.
What else is there?

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the help. I'm sorry to be so much trouble.


MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4
#1545730 04/20/06 10:09 PM
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I just spent the last 30 min. studying the wiring diagrams in my haynes manual. There are 2 components in the fuse boxes that I have overlooked. They are Diodes which are solid state electronics (no moving parts) that allow power to flow only one way. They usually don't fail but when they do its instantly and without any warning at all.

To test the diodes... They will look like a a small relay. They have a diagram on them that looks like 2 arrows point at eachother with a line between the points of the arrows. Take them out, they come out like fuses. They have 2 pins on them. take your meter set to check resistance. Touch one prong of the meter to one pin of the diode, touch the other prong of the meter to the other pin of the diode. Then reverse where you put the prongs of the meter. One way you ahould have a low resistance, the other way should have a very high resistance. If you don't then it is dead.

how to find them.

Check Fuses 1 and 10, both are in the auxilary fuse box under the hood.

Check the starter relay diode in the fuse box under the hood. Its located right under a line of 4 fuses.

Check fuse 30 in the fuse box inside the car.

Check the ignition relay diode in the fuse box in the car. Its on the bottom between the alligator thing and the rows of fuses.

Also, if you said there was a smell, then look for wires that look different with dark spots on them or spots with the insulation bubbled up or even missing.

Check the small wire at the starter for resistance. Here's how to do it. Pull out R6, look at the bottom of it where all the pins are, there should be 4 of them and they should have numbers on the case next to them, 1,2,5 and 3. On the socket in the fuse box that pin 5 would go into put one end of the resistance meter on there, don't press it in or it might mess up the socket so just touch the meter to it, put the other wire of the meter onto the end of the small wire on the starter. (Take this wire off th starter first or the meter will also be trying to read the resistance of the solenoid and give you an erronous reading) The resistance should be very low.

While you have R6 removed use your voltage meter to check for voltage in the socket that pin 3 of R6 fits into. There should be battery voltage there all the time. This is where the relay gets the power from to send to the starter when R6 gets input from the ignition switch when you turn the key to start.

you can do this. Disconnect the battery. Leave the small wire on the starter disconnected, leave R6 out. Take a short peice of wire and short out the sockets in the fuse box that pins 5 and 3 of R6 fit into. This will make the connection that R6 makes to send power to the starter. Take your resisitance meter and put one end on the potitive battery cable terminal and put the other end of the meter onto the end of the small wire that attaches to the starter. The resistance should be low. This will test the condition of the wiring from the battery, through the fuse box and to the starter.

The very dangerous way to test this (DO NOT DO THIS) is with the transmission in neutral, the clutch pedal on the floor and the parking brake on, hook up the small wire to the starter, hook up the battery and use the jumper wire in the sockets of the fuse box for R6 like I said earlier. This should get the starter to crank the engine. What that is doing is bypassing the ignition switch, bypassing all the safety features


I feel sorry for the people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats the best they're going to feel all day - former President Lyndon B. Johnson
#1545731 04/21/06 12:49 PM
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J,

WOW THANKS ! I REALLY appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this! The CEG ROCKS especially NECEG!

I have whittled myself out some time tonight to work on this. I will try what you say.

On the dangerous testing method, what is the danger? Killing the new starter?

I will do some visual checking for any messed up wiring as well. That smell thing on quick restarts has been going on for a while. I didn't worry about it much since it always started right up, I figured the starter just got a little hotter than normal since it just got worked twice in a short amount of time... But now I'm not sure that makes any sense. Must have been an early symptom...

I am running out of time to fix this on my own. My wife has been super patient and all (since some days I steal her van, and others she has to drop me off and pick me up) but she is now thinking that I just don't have the proper diagnostic tools and experience. There is a little indy shop that I can probably push the car to, she thinks we should pay them to diagnose the car, and take what he says is wrong and then I can fix it. She figured all the good citizens of the CEG could tell me what parts of his diagnosis are BS and what is not.

Thanks again! Everyone has been really helpful and patient, and I do appreciate it. I will return and report.


MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4
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