Originally posted by tiv:

The murder rate (homicides per 100,000 population) is:

6.8 (1997 data) in the United States (20.3 in large cities)
2.8 (2004 data) in Saudi Arabia
6.2 (1997 data) in Pakistan




LMAO!!!

"Official" crime stats from both countries are almost laughable. Saudi Arabia is WELL-KNOWN for their skewing of any and everything that puts them in a bad light and Pakistan is only marginally better at this, especially if the ISI is involved in any way, shape or form in producing these stats. It's true that the severity of punishment in Saudi serves as a detrement to those looking to partake in violent crime, but that doesn't change the fact that their society at large views the value of life a bit differently than the US does...

When you have a society that will sever the hand of a thief that is a repeat offender, it's pretty f**king apparent that human life is judged against a different standard than in the West...

Claiming that crime stats is a hallmark or foundation of where a civilization's values of "life" lies is patently ignorant. Period.

Since Iraq has no "official" numbers in terms of fatalities in terms of a government tally, does that mean that they must be the safest and most progressive place to live within the boundaries of the Middle-East???


Originally posted by tiv:
Do you want me to find statistics for Washington DC ? (btw the 6.8 in 1997 was the lowest rate in 30 yrs for the US).

Ok, I'll play; let's tally that against Hussein's body-count in the lowest year of the Iran-Iraq War during the 80's. How about the body-count that Palestine saw? Perhaps Afghanistan? Maybe Libya? (good luck getting a tally there) Ok, take Turkey for example. They are a semi-democracy (apparently the only Muslim one in existance) and view their treatment of Kurds, which is probably mostly "off the books"...

Gypsies and ethnic Bedouins are rountinely treated like s**t in most of these countries (target-practice for the military in some places), so please do me the favor and do your homework before spouting crime stats, alright?

The simple fact is that the sociological "value" of a single life in many Muslim countries as compared to Western countries is something that is simply impossible to quantify with homicide stats, due to the fact that many crimes of this nature go unreported in many of these countries. Honor rapes and killings are quite common in the "redneck" areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Sudan, Ethiopia and many other backwater Muslim nations and the reporting of such crimes is damn-well nonexistant.

Originally posted by tiv:
I don't know what you mean by "Life is graded on a cheaper scale", but the average guy's chances to get killed are higher in Kansas City than in most (if not all) cities of the Middle-East (war zones excluded).

T.




Having lived in KC and built houses in some of the worst areas of it through Habitat for Humanity in KC, MO and having visited UAE, Morocco and had close friends that have been in Saudi, Qatar, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Eqypt and a few other predominantly Muslim countries, I can feel fairly comfortable in saying that quoting crime stats here to prove the point that Middle-Eastern countries are much more progressive in the way they value life is patently pathetic.

Eat your Wheaties before trying to prop this argument up again; it certainly needs a bowl or two to fortify it...

JaTo e-Tough Guy Missouri City, TX 99 Contour SVT #143/2760 00 Corvette Coupe