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Originally posted by Goonz SVT:
who defines the fine line between freedom of speech and religious values?
I don't think there is really a line between them. You can do both. I mean, what's wrong with tolerating what people say (and illustrate). You don't have to agree with them, in fact you can criticize them and condemn them to hell, or whatever it is. You don't have to become violent, shouldn't it be enough that your religion has condemned them already for violating your religion laws? I mean, if a persons religion was 100%, what would be worse: being violent towards the person here, on their short time on earth; or having your god (lord, or whatever you want to call it) punish them eternally for violating a sacred rule?
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
OK, first off, doesn't anybody see the double standard that the Muslims are putting forward here. It's OK for them to call everybody else infidels, mock their religion (i.e. the reference to the Egyptian cartoon of the rabbi drinking blood), & behead them in the name of allah.
Not all Muslims are as uptight, fundamentalist, militant or just plain crazy as most of those throwing a fit about the cartoon. It does seem that many moderates have jumped in and started to gripe (and rightfully so), but I'm not seeing many of them torching embassies or starting riots. I would wager that it's people with LOW education, without jobs and a beef with the West that's been born out of propaganda that have done most of the damage recently...
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
But if you draw a picture of their profit - even depicted in a positive way, it's cause for boycott, uproar, riot, & death threats.
I'm sorry, but those people are f'd up. The only thing that can save them from annihilation is education. Even then, I'm not so sure...
The fundamentalist sects of Islam are most certainly trapped in a 12th century mindset and any expectation of change towards a Westernized sense of humor, living, rights is just naieve. So, yes, I would agree that there is a not insignificant portion of the Muslim population in Africa and Asia that is "bass-ackwards" and will always be until there is some sort of Islamic reform that takes place.
The problem is that continued poverty and non-secular education will keep this from happening for a LONG time, as Islam is akin to a crutch; it is the only "light" that many of these people witness in their entire lives. The worse things get, the more the populations seem to gravitate towards the "radicalized" teachings of Islam and Mullahs that preach messages of hate. It's all about shifting blame to the West for every real and imagined condition or slight that people in poor Islamic countries experience and it's been a runaway success for the militant fundamentalists.
It's no coincidence that the majority of the world's most violent, backwards, uneducated and oppressive countries are practically awash in Islam and little to no other religion. Islam can't be entirely blamed, but the commonality cannot be escaped. It's sad, since the Middle-East was once a great cradle of education, medicine, culture, art and tolerance when it was Europe that was in the throes of the Dark Ages...
Anyway, cartoons (like the one mentioned) that paint Islam with a broad brush merely play into the hands of what the radical Muslims have been preaching all along; they are convinced that the US and the West sees Islam in one light and that light is one through a bomb-sight or one of complete and utter riddicule. Hopefully, this is what moderate Muslims were pissed about (the fact that cartoons like this merely lump the loonies and the peaceful practitioners of Islam all in one basket). Let's just say that such a misunderstanding hasn't won Western civilization any points in the eyes of Muslim moderates and it's THESE people we need to win over as they are the ONLY ones that can correct the downward spiral that Islam has been experiencing.
I could care less how pissed or insulted the extremists get; I do care about the fragile and budding relationship that the West is trying to build with Muslim moderates as they will be the ones that ultimately root out the "evil" that exists in Islam today.
JaTo
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Originally posted by Goonz SVT:
who defines the fine line between freedom of speech and religious values?
Every country has its own set of laws regarding free speech. Religion is just one topic anyone is free to say anything about here in the US. Obviously most ME countries have much different laws regarding what can be said about Islam, and the radical followers of Islam don't really care what their country's laws happen to say about it anyway. The problem occurs when the wackos start trying to enforce their laws and their personal beliefs on everyone else outside their own country.
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i didnt read all 3 pages because i dont really think this is much of a debate..
f'em if they cant take a joke.
their reaction doesnt really read volumes into the character of the muslim world at large either, rioting, burning consulates? The brits had to open fire on a mob in afghanistan over a freaking series of cartoon drawings (most crappy drawings at that!) today; they were threatening to over run a Norwegian consulate... crazywinger islamospazzes.. get bent. 
i'm a pretty open fair and understanding person but this is too damn much to handle, there is nothing that even makes bad sense (let alone good sense) about the situation. people wind up getting shot, burned, over cartoons? crikey!
Last edited by Speed Demon; 02/08/06 02:26 AM.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
I do care about the fragile and budding relationship that the West is trying to build with Muslim moderates as they will be the ones that ultimately root out the "evil" that exists in Islam today.
That's the thing, ain't it. Where are the moderate, peaceful ones. They seem to have no voice. Maybe it's partly our own media supressing the good things that are happening, but I'd sure like to see a crowd of moderates carry Zarwhatizname out into the streets, stone him, then hand his body over to the Iraqi police.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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A squadron of B-52's fully ladened with daisy cutters.
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It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Zoom Zoom Diva:
I'm frankly glad the newspaper had the balls to publish these cartoons. It's great to see somebody is not afraid to say exactly what they think, and I think the cartoons are spot-on.
Would you feel the same way if the newspaper published anti-gay cartoons?
I may or may not think the same about the cartoons themselves, but yes, I would say the same thing in respect of making an honest statement unfettered by the evils of political correctness.
I may interject my own disagreement instead of the last clause, but I would say the rest.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Come on... Since when does the press on either side of the Atlantic do anything BUT try to be PC? This isn't a case where a cartoonist took up the anti-PC cause as a rallying cry; it's a clear-cut case of blatant ignorance and stupidity. Is the same crowd here going to try and tell me they were laughing their asses off at the cartoon that recently ran in US papers that showed a GI (representing the Armed Forces) missing all limbs in a hospital bed with Rumsfeld in a doctor's coat looking on and saying "I'm going to list you as battle-hardened"? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/01/AR2006020102465.htmlHey, it's just a cartoon, no? Or am I being a PC-[censored] when I agreed with the Joint Chiefs that it was entirely tasteless and a rather reprehensible depiction? I mean, there's tasteless humor and then there's slimeball humor that makes everyone in the crowd go quiet and start to walk away, right? Despite the fact that the US population has handled this cartoon gaff with much more poise and restraint than many Muslims have the Danish cartoon, it still doesn't change the fact that they BOTH were rather reckless, ignorant and poor attempts at political humor. Muslim fundamentalists are just looking for ANY reason to riot and shout slogans; fine, give it to them all you want but leave the moderate Muslim population out of the equation. I'm simply tired of all Muslims getting lumped into the same category as the nutcases, which this cartoon blatanly does. Put another way, pretend for a moment that a cartoon ran in the papers right around the time that Roe v. Wade hits the limelight that did a mock-up of the Nativity Scene where the Three Kings were performing an abortion on Mary. Getting the point yet?
JaTo
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Despite the fact that the US population has handled this cartoon gaff with much more poise and restraint than many Muslims have the Danish cartoon, it still doesn't change the fact that they BOTH were rather reckless, ignorant and poor attempts at political humor.
I look at humor in a very different way, I dont care if its a joke on an ethnic group, religous group etc...it may be morally wrong, but if depicts the worlds actions - to me its funny. I dont care if it makes fun of me by something I did or someone of my background. If you cant laugh at yourself, you must be pretty insecure and shallow.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Muslim fundamentalists are just looking for ANY reason to riot and shout slogans; fine, give it to them all you want but leave the moderate Muslim population out of the equation. I'm simply tired of all Muslims getting lumped into the same category as the nutcases, which this cartoon blatanly does.
Amem to that - and why do they riot in the Middle East? What else are they going to do? Hmmm wash the goats today or riot agaisnt America with my buddies?? Tough choice, I am sure its not educated middle/upper class muslims rioting. Of coarse not, the images shown are from the people that have nothing - they know no better - its like a flock of angry sheep who happen to be Muslim.
Seriously look our every day lives - we go to work, make money to support our lives, chat about the crazies of the world online (eat at some time) go home and eventually repeat. Think about the lives of the people over there, ask one of the people on the street if they have the internet - What the F*** is the Internet [/Jay and Silent Bob] you get my point
Originally posted by JaTo:
Put another way, pretend for a moment that a cartoon ran in the papers right around the time that Roe v. Wade hits the limelight that did a mock-up of the Nativity Scene where the Three Kings were performing an abortion on Mary.
- its real life, if thats what the artist felt, its his point of view. I laughed when I read it
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So people made fun of something sacred, and they were suprised when it blew up in their face?I'm not saying attacking embassies in various countries is justified, it isn't. I could think of at least a dozen different political-esque cartoons that would piss off a lot of the US. Would there be rioting? Unlikely, but there would be protests and lawsuits.
"Bros before Hoes" <-- More men need this mentality.
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