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Originally posted by wantsansvt:
this all about Demon not believing that putting an SVT PCM in a contour se sport 5spd would actually give it a horsepower gain.



Not quite. Thanks for putting words I didn't say in my mouth.


This is about the fact that an SVT PCM has no real significant performance changes in the tuning except for the timing curve. That is a fact and not an ignorant statement.

On the best day the timing bump is not going to give 1/3 of what they are claiming.

I still notice there is ZERO A/F data put forth on their behalf. Why exactly is that? Could it be that they either: 1 - did not do it because they are not smart enough to realize it was important or 2 - it proves the A/F was off the deep end rich during that bogus "baseline" pull.


Where all the pulls done on a reset PCM? If not the results are voidable.

Where the injectors changed when the PCM was changed? If not the results are voidable.

Was the MAF changed when the PCM was changed? If not the results are voidable.

I'll stop there for now.

Why you ask?

Because the fuel trim is going to change for every setting. Changing from one to another without reseting the PCM left the prior adaptations still active. A very novice mistake.

Because the different injector PCM settings would call for a different pulse width respectively. Without an injector swap you are getting an erratic change in fuel flow.

Because the MAF does not match the PCM's MAF function. Layman's terms. No match = incorrect fuel trim yet again. For instance some aftermarket MAFs hack the function to lean out the fuel mixture.


This also is ON TOP of everything I have previously posted and not one of those areas have been addressed. Only the fact I did not take the time to find out what year he was talking about in regards to PATS.
YOU DO REALIZE THAT ENTIRE PART YOU QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT PATS AND NOT PERFORMANCE RIGHT???


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you are jsut trying to justify that you cant admit you are wrong. The pcm was changed and it worked. i am done with this. Just accept it and get over yourself. plus the whole thing i edited was jsut to show what was being said. It was just to use and to contridict what you were saying.

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Originally posted by warmonger:
Anyone want to explain what the heck is going on?




They did a bogus baseline and then claimed an SVT PCM gained them 20 HP. However their "after" dyno is still showing less power then a stock Duratec. In other words they didn't gain anything they should not have had already.

The name calling is pure "Dom" at his finest. He's the crush bend king of the CEG archives. If you are in for some humor you can read some of his old posts and responses. There are a lot of old timers (rara, brad, judge, myself, etc) and actual Ford engineers he constantly told had no clue what they were talking about. He was so pissed off about being shown up as wrong all the time he created his own site where he was the leader and you have to believe him or be banned.

Anyway it's old news but still humurous at times. Kind of like most of the car builds that come off that site as well. (like the bastard turbo child from that site that fastcougar was defrauded on)


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Originally posted by wantsansvt:
you are jsut trying to justify that you cant admit you are wrong. The pcm was changed and it worked. i am done with this. Just accept it and get over yourself. plus the whole thing i edited was jsut to show what was being said. It was just to use and to contridict what you were saying.



You are not proving anything.

This is NOT a post to say that swapping an SVT PCM into a non-SVT works because that has already been done countless times over the last several years.

You can pretend that it is but it still proves nothing.

YES THE SVT PCM WORKS IN A NON-SVT.

The whole point of my argument was that there was NO WAY IN HELL that just a PCM swap is going to gain 20 HP/TQ.

Also to this point you can't prove it did because of the multiple flaws I stated in the way the testing was done.

Also even after this SVT PCM swap it still only made stock power levels or less. That doesn't prove anything.


So you can quit any time you like but you still have yet to prove anything out side of the fact about early PATS PCMs. Something I already said was correct earlier btw.


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what ever you want to say. Just get the stick out of your ass and grow up. The PCM did make a 20hp gain. just because it isnt at stock numbers it does not prove anything. not every car runs the same. The facts are right there. just because it didnt sho what you want the numbers are there and in a hard copy.

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Okay, this is making sense now. Well, it seems senseless to make a ruckus over it but I see where it is going.

I'd have to say that assuming the wiring harnesses were compatible and that PATS wasn't an issue due to the year and such, assuming there isn't anything that could be construed as underhanded such as switching an already-flashed PCM, then you have three things that can account for the power increase.

Increase in timing, leaner fuel trims, no learning by the pcm due to swap type of install.

The timing increase is a given and some engines are just begging for an increase in timing....whether factory freak or not, they will respond well to increases in timing due to low air temps and good detonation resistance. For me, I'd think it would really be hard to tell how an engine will respond to another ten degrees or so of timing.

ALL stock duratec graphs that I've seen on normal operating engines have run rich, like 11's:1 or even as low as 10:1

Pop in an SVT PCM that is set for a different injector into an engine that has smaller injectors and you will most likely lean the A/F out. Remember, both engines are 2.5L so they take the same amount of fuel to run at idle and normal speeds. If you put in a smaller injector then you'll get less fuel because the pulse width will be set for the larger injector.
Also, As long as the ambient temps are cool you can get away with an even leaner A/F than normal and make really good power.

So I'd say that 20 HP increase from leaner A/F on very cool ambient temps (IT is winter after all), ramped up timing from the pcm, and an otherwise good working engine....Then Yes, 20HP is very possible.

The problem is, as soon as that pcm were driven around for a couple of days with adaptive learning turned on...it will go right back to suckin wind on that car as it trims out all the fuel.
Oh, if the O2 sensors are bad or old, then this can exacerbate the issue.

I'd also be that the engine will be popping CELs over a week of driving due to out of wack aiflow and load readings.


Finally, I read Demons posts in context and I agree that his information about MAFs, functions, injectors, timing curves is correct. That doesn't mean that you can't do russian roulette and come up a winner sometimes.

You see, I have the SCT software and I've had to independently learn the things he is talking about. And the part about not being able to cut and paste code is taken out of context. YOU CAN cut and past code....all day long if you want. However, it doesn't mean that it is the right way or that it is going to work correctly and if you make it work by just cut and paste, it isn't the end of the story. You have to "TUNE" everything. Anyone who doesn't is not finishing the Job or doing a Hack Job.

So what is the big deal anyway? I mean we are talking about a low power duratec showing what a duratec with an SVT pcm is capable of?? Of course! The SVT is/was significantly more developed for power. A big portion of that was coding the PCM code to better take advantage of the engines design. The timing curve was probably exhaustively explored to keep it maximum without detonation. Hell the actual design of the two engines is identical other than cams and compression, therefore the engines should both respond equally well to the same timing curves. The compression and breathing improve the numbers too, probably the reason that weak SVT's dyno in the 150s and stong ones dyno in the 170s stock.




Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760 356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas! See My Mods '05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red '06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by wantsansvt:
â??Want to look like a total ass like you sound?â?
â??And for the blubbering idiotâ?
â??I thought God's didn't talk out the side of their assesâ?
â??Ohh I forgot this is CEG were talking about.. nm - explains itself.â?
â??Not a MDS or Midas whatever the hell Demon is talking aboutâ?
â??I guess if "god" can't explain why it works.. It must not work (in his world).â?
â??Hey Demon, who's ignorant now? Maybe you should investigate first before writing people's work off.â?
â??Just get the stick out of your ass and grow up.â?





Wantsareasontobebanned, where's all the anger coming from? You took a ragged out 2.5L and brought the HP back up to stock levels. Do you want a cookie? No A/F tables???? You do realize that, that's the most important part of a dyno, right??? How about you take a stock 2.5L that puts out atleast average numbers and do your PCM swap? If it comes back with 20HP gains again, I'll send you that cookie you wanted. Calling people names not only makes you look immature, but also discredits everything you have to say.

Mark


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you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?


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Originally posted by SVTatGT:
you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?




Yes, and I also realize that he is peddling Dom's information back and forth, only to start board wars. This guy could have chosen not to come over with the flamebait, but he failed to do so. You know, guilt by association?

Mark


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I hear ya


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