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Joined: Aug 2001
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I would not spend a dime building the 2.5L engine or anything with 2.5L heads. Period. (well late 2002MY the 2.5L changed)
Nobody can defend the use of a known engine failure waiting to happen much less paying to build something with it. Also trying to justify it is just plain ignorant. 'nuff said.
I Totally disagree.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by BurritaSVT:
Why bored? quoted by Buckshot
"than that, I don't agree with the issue of not boring the motor out Tom. The main reason to do it is when using aftermarket pistons it's a lot easier to size the bore to the piston rather than vice versa. With 6 stock grade sizes of pistons ADC ran into that very issue when they ordered a "stock" bore size piston set for a customer. They're now sitting on a set of 3L pistons that are sized for a grade 1 bore block. I just found a high performance coating they can use to build up the piston size enough to be used in other blocks so they can at least salvage something out of the pistons. In all the engines I've done, I've never had a full grade 1 block and the vast majority are grade 2 piston size blocks."
my .02 cents any block no matter how many miles or knocks it can be used. I saw a long block with a knock for $75 and slap a clean bored on it and what you have $200 new motor. High milage blocks will only be found as years go by. I have over 30,000 in my car it will stay with me till I hate it.
I will be ordering my pistons this week except now i will go dished making my CR drop to 8.5:1 so I can put some monster boost to it and keep the cylinder temps down.
I'm not saying to have a professional hone done to match the pistons and even out the bores. The point is, aftermarket shyte usually isn't close to matching the bores exactly so you will HAVE to match your pistons. However, selecting pistons isn't as easy as buying joe schmucks forged jobs. Forged pistons can be a variety of metal compositions. What is rate of expansion on the piston versus the stock piston? Stock pistons have extremely tight piston-bore clearances because they have limited thermal expoansion. Not so on forged jobs. Ring tension, type of hone, all play a role.
Slapping in aftermarket forged pistons with a cheap hone and hoping they will work is as bad as any other option out there.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015
Hard-core CEG'er
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Tom,
Burrita has either talked himself, or his builder has talked him into needing all this extra work. I'm thinking the latter, well, because he's making money from it!
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
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Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
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Hmmm, where to start. I think you guys are completely missing the picture by not having built any of the forged internal motors.
I'm probably the one most influencing Burrita to do a bored out engine and no, I'm not the one building his motor, just an advisor. Here is the thinking as simple as I can make it:
1) 3L blocks often have multiple grades of piston sizes within 1 block. You cannot order forged pistons to multiple diamters to the .0001" in the same batch.
2) Forged piston manufacturers know the material they're manufacturing, have tolerances to .0001" and recommend bore tolerances based on their knowledge of the expansion rate of materials. Don't make the mistake you know more about using the manufacturers product than they do.
3) His current bore is trashed after looking at the condition of his pistons (I have them in hand). He must buy new pistons and if he wants to keep from having to buy a new block, he can just increase the bore size on his current block to the next level which I recommend in .010" increments. If he's currently at .020" overbore, then go to a .030" overbore piston and have the bore matched to it.
4) As far as stock internals go, he's all ready got forged parts, why does he want to go back to stock? Even if he wanted to go with stock pistons his only option is the OEM aftermarket type and depending on the weight, may still cause him to rebalance his assembly.
5) For balancing, the only way he should not have to rebalance the assembly is if the new parts are lighter than the last set or within a few grams of the old ones. If they are significantly heavier, than he must rebalance the crank as well.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Hmmm, where to start. I think you guys are completely missing the picture by not having built any of the forged internal motors.
I'm probably the one most influencing Burrita to do a bored out engine. Here is the thinking as simple as I can make it:
1) 3L blocks often have multiple grades of piston sizes within 1 block. You cannot order forged pistons to multiple diamters to the .0001" in the same batch.
2) Forged piston manufacturers know the material they're manufacturing, have tolerances to .0001" and recommend bore tolerances based on their knowledge of the expansion rate of materials. Don't make the mistake you know more about using the manufacturers product than they do.
3) His current bore is trashed after looking at the condition of his pistons (I have them in hand). He must buy new pistons and if he wants to keep from having to buy a new block, he can just increase the bore size on his current block to the next level which I recommend in .010" increments. If he's currently at .020" overbore, then go to a .030" overbore piston and have the bore matched to it.
4) As far as stock internals go, he's all ready got forged parts, why does he want to go back to stock? Even if he wanted to go with stock pistons his only option is the OEM aftermarket type and depending on the weight, may still cause him to rebalance his assembly.
5) For balancing, the only way he should not have to rebalance the assembly is if the new parts are lighter than the last set or within a few grams of the old ones. If they are significantly heavier, than he must rebalance the crank as well.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Rick
All good points Rick.
My thoughts pertain to points 4) and 5) of your post.
I offered Burrita new 3.2447 bore forged pistons and a stock undamaged block. Hence he would only need to dip the block at most (if he REALLY wanted to) and he would NOT have to hone it. The factory honing is still VERY obvious and unblemished. With this combo he could take his crank and forged rods and place them into this block with pistons that WOULD be lighter (if only marginally) - seeing as he had larger 3.265 pistons to start with - and he would not have to rebalance anything.
Hence his added costs he laid out for boring, honing, rebalancing etc can be omitted.
Realistically the only thing he needs to do is transfer his rod and crank over. All the other iems like gaskets, bearings and bolts are a wash as he needs those for any path he will take.
Burrita told me new pistons from Diamond in the 2.5L bore are $450 - so I offered to match that price. So effectively outside of the cost of a new piston kit (the block I said i would give him for free) he has no additional prep costs that he needs to address.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
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Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
Stazi,
How did you come by the measurements for you pistons? Did you measure the bore of that particular block you have or did you base them off of the stock listed dimensions for OEM pistons? What I'm getting at is do you know for a fact that your piston to bore clearance is .0045"? If not, then you're fooling yourself thinking he only has to clean up the block (that's strictly a best case scenario).
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015 |
The measurements come with the pistons' documentation.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
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Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
No sh!t?! I mean how did you decide what size to make the pistons in the first place, did you pull the diameter out of a hat, the CD rom, or measure the bores on the block you're trying to give Burrita? (hint: only one of these options is viable)
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015 |
They were bought as a drop in for the 2.5L engine - I got them to suit the nominal 2.5L bore.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
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Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
Uhhh. wrong answer. You've got to fit the piston to a specific bore size, not just the mid point of the road from 6 different choices.
Also, here's a copy of Terry's email
"Sorry Aussie but....
They were bought as a drop in for the 2.5L engine - I
got them to suit the nominal 2.5L bore.
...is the wrong answer...they would make them all 'mid
point' i.e Grade 2.....You MUST be very specific with
ALL dimensions when you are an engine builder...you
can always remove metal but you can't put it back!!!!"
Thanks,
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
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