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Joined: Feb 2003
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by MxRacer:
Originally posted by sigma:
If someone puts something in your bag and you walk off with it, did you 'steal' it? Simply receiving something is not theft. Knowingly using something that you know isn't yours would be. If I find said item in my bag and can reasonably assume that my wife put it there for me to find, did I 'steal' it?
don't know about where you live, but posession of stolen property is illegal here in MI, if you knew it was stolen or not.
Should have clarified. I put "steal" in quotes for a reason, because, yes, that technically is stealing even if you had no idea that you were.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
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I have done it before i purchased a router and an internet connection ( for about 2 weeks)
I say fair game if they don't go through the time to properly secure them
2002 Ford ZX2 5spd (2nd baby)
Former owner of 1998 Mystique (never filled the shoes on my first love)parents traded for new sable
Former owner of 1996 Mystique(My true baby  )
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by sigma:
If I find said item in my bag and can reasonably assume that my wife put it there for me to find, did I 'steal' it?
If I find an open connection, I can reasonably assume that the paying user put it out there for others to find it. Otherwise, they would have clicked on the little button making it a secure connection.
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by 1314:
Originally posted by sigma:
If I find said item in my bag and can reasonably assume that my wife put it there for me to find, did I 'steal' it?
If I find an open connection, I can reasonably assume that the paying user put it out there for others to find it. Otherwise, they would have clicked on the little button making it a secure connection.
Come on 
Do you really believe that? I agree that it's not hard to secure your connection (atleast in a basic way), its just that people are lazy. 
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by 1314:
Originally posted by sigma:
If I find said item in my bag and can reasonably assume that my wife put it there for me to find, did I 'steal' it?
If I find an open connection, I can reasonably assume that the paying user put it out there for others to find it. Otherwise, they would have clicked on the little button making it a secure connection.
That would be a fine argument if the only person you are stealing from was the person whose connection you were using. But the real person you're stealing from, the actual one whom its' costing money, is the service provider whom gets a double-whammy -- less revenue from a paying customer, and more costs on the customer that is paying due to higher bandwith usage. Whether a person offers it to you or not doesn't make it "not-stealing" since it's not theirs to freely give out anymore than your cable TV signal is yours to give out to whomever wants it.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
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2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
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Originally posted by sigma:
Whether a person offers it to you or not doesn't make it "not-stealing" since it's not theirs to freely give out
Which brings us back to playing a CD for your friends. THEY didn't pay to listen to the CD and the paying consumer sure as hell isn't entitled to freely pass along that intellectual property because it still resides with record company.
I see this argument having two protagonists. One side preaches fire and brimstone about the damnation that will surely result from using open wi-fi; they are the ones who also seek stringent enforcement of speed limits yet routinely do 5 mph over, who watch a program on PBS yet never offer a contribution, and who routinely take a penny yet never leave one. The other side sees it merely as yet another gray area of morality in this tech-savvy world who feel that if it was such a problem plaguing ISPs we would have surely seen SOMETHING from them telling their users how to lock their access points. Perhaps a notice to new subscribers? Perhaps a notice to current subscribers that are extensive users? Perhaps a banner ad on their website? No? Well maybe this isn't such the problem you fire and brimstone lot make it out to be... 
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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The ability for persons in you home or car to listen to the CD is fair use. The Internet/Wireless router isn't stating how many people you could have in your home using the signal, just like for wired ports. If you had a friend over surfing the internet on his laptop, that's fine.
The problem is when you cross properties. Now, it has extended beyond fair personal use to sharing beyond the terms the provider sold you. For some reason, some tech people seem to want to differentiate between tangible and intangible property. The owner of the source signal did not consent to the use of it beyond the customer. The owner is incurring an incremental cost for the added bandwidth of the person latching on (satellite has little or no incremental cost for additional subscribers).
The grey area of morality comes from people who somehow there's a difference when none exists.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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I believe the concept that is being reached for here is "intent".
If one can show knowing and willful intent to do something, as well as a repetitive behavior, then "theft" would be a fairly easy case to prove if the owner of the broadcasing device wished to pursue a legal remedy. I agree that an unsecured access point is asking for trouble, much like leaving a door unlocked to a car or house, but it doesn't change the fact that something is being taken without prior consent.
It's yet another case of "just because you can, it doesn't mean you should".
JaTo
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Sometimes the University's Wi-Fi is pretty shady and if the PS2 is using the ethernet cable I'll leech off of the Delta Zeta's open network. Silly sorority girls.
I say it's fair. Its not hard to secure your own wireless connection. There are all kinds of tutorials out there and if you call your service provider, they'll walk you through it. It's not rocket science.
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