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OK, let me put it this way. Would making the Ford GT it's own brand make any sense to you? Hey let's go buy a GT-brand GT! Or maybe a GT-brand Mustang! Whatever dude. Also, the Corvette is a Halo car for Chevrolet. It gets customers to come inside Chevy showrooms. Why in the world would they throw that away? Besides, the Corvette will ALWAYS be a Chevrolet. Period. Always has been, always will be. Besides, Chevrolet has always been about being a good value, maybe not so much today in comparison to Imports, but it still tries. Imagine how you would see Chevy if the imports had nevr even come over here or existed. Chevy wouldn't be as bad as everyone sees it. I just think that your logic of making Corvette it's own brand is terminally flawed.
J.T.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 294ci V8. Custom CAI, headers on the way...
1997 Mercury Mystique Zetec ATX
Deceased February 2006
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Originally posted by baco99:
Originally posted by XKontour98:
Originally posted by baco99:
you can still buy Oldsmobiles, by the way.
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/home_f/index.html
Yeah, used ones. That website was for 2004 
oh no. they are new, 2 year old cars that you can still buy. they made so many leftover fleet vehicles, they are practically giving them away to consumers. a good example of oversupply resutling in reduced margins.
Couldnt locate any new Olds anywhere on that site. And they are still trying to get $28K suposedly for a van!
Originally posted by Chickens:
Religion can't do much for ashholes (unless you are an alterboy)
98.5 Se w/SVT mods
98 E0 SVT~ sold
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Originally posted by baco99:
Originally posted by XKontour98:
Originally posted by baco99:
you can still buy Oldsmobiles, by the way.
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/home_f/index.html
Yeah, used ones. That website was for 2004
oh no. they are new, 2 year old cars that you can still buy. they made so many leftover fleet vehicles, they are practically giving them away to consumers. a good example of oversupply resutling in reduced margins.
The only "new" Oldsmobiles that have been on the market as new for almost the past 2 years was the Alero, and that's only because GM continued to produce it more than a year after Oldsmobile was shut down just to produce for fleet sales. GM hasn't had any Bravadas, Intrigues, or Auroras on-hand in over a year. The ongoing, stock-piled Aleros were fleet cars only and not generally sold direct to consumer unless some really weird person actually wants one.
It was actually a good idea for GM to do this. Fleets have to buy something, and it cheapens a model to have it inundate the fleets. So producing a car just for fleets that you no longer produce for the average consumer, is a great idea. GM pays its' workers whether they're producing cars or not, so it's better to have them producing cheap rental fleet cars at a break-even on their pay, than sitting at home at a 100% loss. And it satisfies the demand from the fleets and leaves your newer cars for the consumer market.
It's exactly the same thing that Ford is doing with the Taurus this year. In fact, market demand is so good on their newer cars that they recently extended the ongoing production of the Taurus a few more months until at least August of 2006.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
Webpage
2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
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Originally posted by XKontour98:
Originally posted by baco99:
Originally posted by XKontour98:
Originally posted by baco99:
you can still buy Oldsmobiles, by the way.
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/home_f/index.html
Yeah, used ones. That website was for 2004
oh no. they are new, 2 year old cars that you can still buy. they made so many leftover fleet vehicles, they are practically giving them away to consumers. a good example of oversupply resutling in reduced margins.
Couldnt locate any new Olds anywhere on that site. And they are still trying to get $28K suposedly for a van!
maybe you're looking at the wrong site:
"The 2004 Silhouette"
2004 Silhouette FWD
MSRP
$28,790*
2004 Silhouette AWD
MSRP
$35,065*
Silhouette's refined performance and distinctly car-like ride, plus its vast array of comfort, convenience and entertainment features, make it one of the few minivans that can satisfy the desire for a driver-oriented vehicle that's as entertaining to drive as it is to ride in.
And it's all backed by the 5-Year/60,000-Mile GM Protection Plan�®. Click here for more details.
It's a NEW 2004 model. it's not used, not pre-owned. new.
For Sale:
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Originally posted by sigma:
.
It was actually a good idea for GM to do this. Fleets have to buy something, and it cheapens a model to have it inundate the fleets.
i'll concede when i'm wrong. i think you have a point here. it's just such a slow and painful death for Olds.
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Originally posted by MadMerc97:
OK, let me put it this way. Would making the Ford GT it's own brand make any sense to you? Hey let's go buy a GT-brand GT! Or maybe a GT-brand Mustang!
i don't think either of us is saying it's the right thing for Ford to do.
Originally posted by MadMerc97:
Chevrolet has always been about being a good value, maybe not so much today in comparison to Imports, but it still tries.
i don't see how a $60,000+ sports car is a sensible match in a lineup of mediocre family cars. besides, if you read my whole post, you'd see that the Corvette brand would be part of a larger re-imaging of all GM's brands. this fuzzy line between "value" and what consumers are actually willing to pay for, should be made more clear. Chevy should equal cheap, reliable transportation, nothing more. leave the fancy stuff to the other brands.
Originally posted by MadMerc97:
Imagine how you would see Chevy if the imports had nevr even come over here or existed. Chevy wouldn't be as bad as everyone sees it.
why would i imagine that! the horror! the whole world driving nothing but Cavliers, Reliants, and Escorts! blegh!
For Sale:
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- 1973 Karmann Ghia Convertible w/ Auto-Stick. Needs Restoration. $1200 OBO
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Originally posted by red99sesport:
Yeah, actually you are more of a killer if you kill two people instead of one. You would get sentenced to almost twice as long in prison.
As for the comment about the Camry, so lame. The Camry recall was on an optional feature, and that feature doesn't mean [censored] unless you are involved in a side impact accident. The Ford recall about the gas tank coming off could kill people other than those riding in the 500. If you were to compare say the steering system recall on a Tundra to the F-150 recall for cruise control, where both things are standard features, and obviously parts problems, that would be vaild.
BTW, regardless of the truthfullness of the statement that Ford cars aren't the quality automobiles Toyotas and Hondas are, if that is what people think, it will hurt Ford sales. They need to start worring on a major scale about their image to the American public if they wish to keep selling cars.
So I get the same penalty for one versus two....might as well be twenty.
You my friend show that you haven't worked on multiple automobiles and don't really know what you are talking about. If you had you'd know what it is I'm driving at. I'm not a Ford guy. The last two new cars I've bought weren't Ford, one was domestic and one was foreign. I've owned plenty of japanese cars and I love hondas in particular due to their build quality.
If I had to rank them, it would be Honda #1, Toyota#2/3, BMW #2/3, Mercedes 4/5, Volvo, Audi, VW, Nissan/Mazda, etc. I'm lucky and have worked on and driven at least some models of every car above. I've seen recalls on many of the cars above and read about many more.
I drive a Ford because it was ONE fun car that they made. I've never regretted the SVT nor the money I spent on it.
My point is that almost all of the cars you see on the road are within close competition. The quality is good on all the above and it really is hard to see until you do statistical analyses on the issues. Any of them will treat you well if you take car of it.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Originally posted by red99sesport:
Having had Mazdas (before Ford bought them), Toyotas, Fords, Lincolns, Mercurys, one Chrysler, and one Honda growing up, I can tell you this. Our biggest POS Mazda or Toyota was 10x better put together and 10x more reliable than our best Ford car not to mention the Japanese cars were 10x less recalled. We never had one Ford or Mercury that didn't have at least three recalls during the 2 to 3 years we leased it. The Lincoln was only recalled once. How many recalls have we ever had on a Toyota or Mazda? None. How many repairs did the Toyotas or Mazdas need? None. (We did have one Honda that had been wrecked and overheated sometimes) For a while my Dad worked for Ford, and we had to drive Ford cars. As soon as he quit and our leases were up, we went back to our problem free Toyotas and Mazdas. We don't have time to baby our cars and have them in for constant repairs. When I say baby, I don't mean not abuse. I mean I don't think you should have to correct things like the low coolant light on our car, and worry about [censored] waterpumps failing on cars with 100k. Ford can not provide reliability on a consistant basis, and when the A-plan discount was gone, they lost business from me, my parents, my grandparents, aunts, uncles, and anyone else related to us that qualified for the discount.
Sounds like you may be a tool.  I listed three friggin pages of just 3 or 4 specific models of Toyota in only two model years. There were Many more. Then you say..."oh, they aren't as bad as fords". Well maybe they aren't. But a recall is a fuggin recall is a fuggin recall! The quality thing...yeah, I agree 100% that Toyota quality is better. I'm not going to be like you and throw on my knee pads about Toyota on a Contour site! 
Then you jump in and say all of this other crap. You are obviously biased from other peoples opinions and you can't even list your own examples clearly without drawing on media hype.
It has nothing to do with Ford either. You shouldn't use cars you didn't have the personal experience with. That's hearsay. I suppose I upset you. Sorry, I guess I should tone it back a bit. I'm just disgusted that people don't realize just how many problems ALL manufacturers end up with. Working on Toyotas and Selling Toyotas (which I did) gives you a perspective that the average suck-up doesn't get.
Go ahead and pop off with another witty comment or start splitting hairs again. I'm pretty much done with this thread now. I have nothing else to point out that will change what people think. I'm sure you do have more to say on it and I probably will read it but I'll take it with a grain of salt.
Funny, this is a contour site and the contour has very few recalls for a 'Ford' vehicle if you compare it by any of your previously standards listed previously.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Originally posted by baco99:
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by baco99:
i don't know why people get so defensive over Ford cars! the build quality on their cars is sh-t! i should know, i've had 2 of them!
I've been on 4 Navy ships, and 5 stations... I'm not an expert in Naval strategy, or defense.
I've had 10 to 15 PC's built from scratch, but I'm not an expert on Intel's marketing strategy, nor their financial stock situation.
While I do agree that there are some sub-par quality issues with a few US market companies, I don't agree, particularly, that it is a "ford" issue. All makers do have recalls.. Those Japanese companies do too.
The Toyota owners are crying about Ford sucking, the ford owners are saying that Toyota sucks, too.
What else is new?
See!? Why do people get so defensive about this. Look at the numbers. GM has reported gross losses for the last 3 quarters ($839 million in Q1, $286 million in Q2, $1.6 billion in Q3). Ford's done better, but not great. Toyota's worldwide marketshare is climbing, GM's is declining (down to 14.5%). Ford's done beter, but not great.
GM and Ford JUST announced the return to incentives, only 2 months after empoyee pricing ended. Why? Because they are stuck with a glut of inventory, mandatory worker contracts, and sub-par products and customer service.
This ain't just me yapping, it's the market talking!
Shape up or go out of business!
GM has been reporting record losses since "I" was a kid! WTF has changed? They still sell cars and they're still there. You still see more cars from the General on the road than any other. How is that possible? Many of them last a long time. Many of them are cheap. It may just be that you are comparing apples to oranges. I've had some crappy GM cars. I had a crappy Honda that I worked on constantly from the 60K mile mark. I had a Honda that purred at 130K miles with almost no money in it and I have a buddy that had a 200K mile Accord (1988 model) that had never had anything but maintenance done on it....AND it was an ATX!!
I put many replacement carburetors on 87-89 timeframe Corolla/Geo Prisms (thought it was early 90s when I was doing it) because they were designed like [censored] and had float and air horn problems. For that time period, a $600 job was a bit much. Still, I could list tit for tat.
In the end I'll still go with the fact that Honda and Toyota make the most reliable cars from that tinme period. They are just still riding high on their successes from the 70's and 80's.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by baco99:
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by baco99:
i don't know why people get so defensive over Ford cars! the build quality on their cars is sh-t! i should know, i've had 2 of them!
I've been on 4 Navy ships, and 5 stations... I'm not an expert in Naval strategy, or defense.
I've had 10 to 15 PC's built from scratch, but I'm not an expert on Intel's marketing strategy, nor their financial stock situation.
While I do agree that there are some sub-par quality issues with a few US market companies, I don't agree, particularly, that it is a "ford" issue. All makers do have recalls.. Those Japanese companies do too.
The Toyota owners are crying about Ford sucking, the ford owners are saying that Toyota sucks, too.
What else is new?
See!? Why do people get so defensive about this. Look at the numbers. GM has reported gross losses for the last 3 quarters ($839 million in Q1, $286 million in Q2, $1.6 billion in Q3). Ford's done better, but not great. Toyota's worldwide marketshare is climbing, GM's is declining (down to 14.5%). Ford's done beter, but not great.
GM and Ford JUST announced the return to incentives, only 2 months after empoyee pricing ended. Why? Because they are stuck with a glut of inventory, mandatory worker contracts, and sub-par products and customer service.
This ain't just me yapping, it's the market talking!
Shape up or go out of business!
GM has been reporting record losses since "I" was a kid! WTF has changed?
what's changed? the markets have changed, the technology has changed, the competition has changed... hell, everything has changed! just because GM was losing money 20 years ago is a good reason to keep losing money today? wow, that's a very interesting perspective.
the difference is that GM's market share has declined from 25%+ in the 80's to 14.5% today, you can't sustain mounting financial loses when you're also losing more and more of the pie! it's simple economics. the well will run dry unless SIGNIFICANT changes are made.
this ain't time for patching up holes in the system, it's time for a whole new system!
For Sale:
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