Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Common Interests Case for War in Iraq

You anti-bush guys will fit in over @ anandtech

May 12th, 2005? How long does this "verge" take for civil war to engulf Iraq, Councilor? The tone of the article sounds like a subliminal trailer for the recently-released "Chicken Little" movie.

Maybe there are some others that need that slide lecture on Rwanda...

Be treated to your own medicine; I would prefer to "wait and see" where we stand and view things in a much more complete light, rather than make any further incomplete assumptions, especially those based off of or pieced together by a journalist with a political axe to grind (I'd love to know where the piece came from, by the way).

Isn't that the flag Democrats and liberals have been flying for quite some time now, is that the Bush administration shouldn't have been or currently be so hasty in it's judgements on Iraq? That's the lecture some have been whispering and others have been shouting recently....

Or are only the ones that are absent a "political tit" that the Dems are currently sucking on fair game here?

Again, review the articles I posted previously; they discuss the reasons for staying in as long as it is APPROPRIATE, not for staying at all costs. There's a difference and I'm for staying as long as it's appropriate.

JaTo: I was gonna do this as a PM but decided otherwise. I was gonna stay out of this thread, but felt I owed you some respect first. Checked out your articles. One sounded too much like a January 2005 version of what Kerry was saying during the debates, so I wasn't sure you were serious in wanting to sound too much like him. Like involving other nations? Bush ripped Kerry a new butt for saying that, and now Bush can not do it, lest someone point out he was enacting Kerry's advice.

Yes, the May 05 article was out of Newsday by Tim Phelps, but the ME pentagon intelligence guy quoted to say it is a civil war was not a straw man journalist as your response post might prefer. But if it was a civil war in May, I don't recall news since then that the civil war has ended.

Wait and see, I appreciate that. I personally AM torn over should we stay or should we go. (Insert Clash soundtrack here). I'd been a stay person up to recently, and now on the other hand, we've already had 2 1/2 years of compounded blunders there, by people who have yet to admit they've made any and who trumpet their intent to just keep on doing more of the same. I did not have much trust in them from the outset admittedly, but I can understand how some who did hold much faith in this administration feel very let down. So we are now stuck having to wait and see, and hope. And hoping for what? Hoping the Sunnis don't have their own NEW Saddam or clerics take over? Hoping the Shi'ites do NOT make a democracy like that in IRAN?

In the meantime, we train the Iraqi military and police to keep the peace on their own, but members of those groups just happen to be sunnis and shi'ites biding their time for when we leave. No, we need MORE than just a trained Iraqi military/police force in place when we leave. We need a stable, established secular government with a broad consensus. (Yeah, right, like that's gonna happen within just another year or two. Does Bush have that rabbit stuffed into a magic hat?)

But I see this thread as dealing with two topics not fully hashed before. 1) There's not been an investigation completed on what info manipulation/withholding took place (although what the intell that was released said has been hashed about) and 2) from my hijack, what do we do now: stay or go, which differs from the "why or how did we get there" flying flag you reference. An Odom/McCain discussion would be great to sit in on, but we rarely get that on CEG.

NEXT, that you have realism over "what circumstances/ when is it appropriate to leave" -- and expressly leaving that subject to change -- I have to agree with you. I'm concerned about what's the best outcome this bunch can realistically produce, and everytime someone says we're spreading democracy to the middle east I want to heave over the idealogical naivete. Remember the quote on politics being like making sausage? We're making Iraq sausage. The Brits tried it once and their bangers lasted most of a century, but it was still sausage. Now our present cook preaches he's preparing filet mignon. WTF? I have to consider if we're better pulling out before this cook burns the whole meal. Talk about a record for assuring other emerging democracies...

And finally, thank you for having intellectual integrity, and both the means and the ends matter to you. You do NOT have a need to be correct 100% of the time, even when you are incorrect, although you're clearly way above 50% for being correct and you're not fully married to a fancied unerring idealogy. Lord knows I can't fault you for having an ego and intelligence and I'm too shrill, but your contributions are almost always legit even when I differ greatly with them. BTW, I owe you kudos for one you did in the Texas gay marriage vote thread.

Anyway, everybody enjoy the thread. I've made all the contributions I wanted to make to this one. These next weeks will be entertaining.

If this thread were a stalled car and BP was driving and we all were pushing, he'd have it in gear with his foot firmly on the brake.

Your last comment shows that you did not read the Senate Intelligence Committee's conclusions. They clearly stated that there was no evidence that any intelligence analysts were pressured to beef up the intel. What source are you using for your claim?

Also the SIC does have access to the same intelligence data. Their role is to review that data, and they are the only ones in the Legislative branch that are allowed to see it. See my post further up for the info right off their website.