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Morality (secular or religious) is NOT defined by the state of marriage. No matter how good or evil a person is, they are not introduced into a "state of grace" by marriage. Therefore, marriage in of itself is only as holy or upstanding of an institution as those that partake in it.
Since ALL sin is equal in the eyes of God (well, for most Christian denominations that aren't hinging their beliefs strictly off of a few passages in Proverbs AND in blantant disregard to a fair amount of red ink in the New Testament) and since I assume that you consider homosexuality a choice (therefore a sin when engaged in), how is homosexual marriage any better or worse than pre-nuptual marriages, marriages of convienence (money, status, green-card), etc. or marriage embarked on out of lust instead of love? Or marriages that end in divorce?
An example: Eva Braun's marriage to Adolf Hitler. If you think for ONE moment that God smiled down on that heterosexual marriage and on the other hand is frowning on gay marriages of those that are upstanding citizens AND active Christians, I have a brick I'd like to throw at you...
I just don't think God is up in Heaven with a whistle in his mouth blowing it loudly and giving us a technical foul on the subject. I would like to think he's asking Christians to look at the bigger picture.
Finally, marriage as a Christian ritual was "borrowed" from pagan rituals so how do you get around that? I mean, if gays certainly can't be "cleansed" of their evil through a religious ceremony (or if they pollute it as you seem to allude to), how in the Hell can marriage be anything but a farce to begin with, since I would counter that any pagan rite certainly couldn't be cleansed of it's evil just due to the fact that Moses laid down a few laws and practices surrounding it in the Pentateuch...
Since Christianity (and secular society) frowns on the practice of polygamy, how do you adjust for Solomon having a SLEW of wives? David? Moses?
Since religion and society now abhor this practice, should I lump half of the mentioned male population of the Old Testament in with a group of gay male strippers living in a flat in Chelsea on Manhattan Island? Sin is sin, right?
Yes, marriage as a religious institution is "man and wife" (or wives, depending on the era, particular religion and social status) but since this has OBVIOUSLY changed over the eons, I suspect that it will change once again.
I'm all for keeping marriage as a religious institution and let the various churches fight it out on who should be considered the right of a recognized religious ceremony, but the recent votes stink and smack of ignorance, bigotry and hatred because at it's CORE it's not a religious issue though it's been turned into one. It is one of secular acknowledgement and it's being robbed of people that could quite easily be better human beings and Christians than you or I.
The Pharisees are far from a dead and extinct sect in Christianty, it seems...
JaTo
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Originally posted by RT and his SE:
Originally posted by Woodencross:
I see this fight for homosexual marriage as a struggle to put a "nice" spin on something that is disgusting and unnatural. Homosexuals have the same rights to marry as I do, but we must protect our society from those things which would destroy our moral backbone. Homosexual marriage is one of these things. I suppose when homosexuals finally have their way, it will be only a matter of time before NAMBLA will be getting their way with young boys!!!
You can call it what you will, but homosexual marriage will never do anything to assist the growth of our society!!
Wow! What happened to turn the other cheek and to error is human to forgive divine, love thy neighbor? Maybe you should climb down off your high horse and take a homophobic break! Or maybe you should let God do the judging since they are his rules and who better to interpret them.
You know what would be the ultimate irony...is if you were denied entry into heaven because of your hatred!
Soon they'll be teaching it on the corners! Are the voices in my head bothering you? 
Tony I think you hit the nail on the head!
It is as if you are saying that I must close my eyes to what is going on around me, and let life be what it is. I must be a pacifist and allow the evil around me to be justified and allowed in my world.
I do not put myself on ANY high horse and in fact view myself as a sinner more than any other. I sin and struggle on a daily basis with sins that only I will know, and are between myself and God. I do not judge, but I cannot stand by idly while those who attempt to justify their sin through laws and society do so. I am called to be a man of God, and if that offends, so be it. I am as great a sinner as any homosexual, but refuse to be blind to the sin that has taken our world by the throat.
At the same time though, my love for that person (whether homosexual, murderer, whatever) as a child of God will never cease. I believe the Bible teaches us to not judge, because I have sinned more than I can ever even consider paying for. That's why Christ died on the cross for me and all who live. But at the same time, we are not told to sit by idly while sin overtakes our lives. Even Christ cleaned out the temple because He, as God and human completely, knew what they were doing was wrong according to God's own word. And if I do judge a sinner, I hope that God will hold me to as high a standard. I hope in the deepest crevices of my heart that you see this and understand that I would never treat anybody as less of a person simply because of a sin, but at the same time I will not justify their actions simply because they want to "feel" some sort of normalcy by rationalizing their sin.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Since Christianity (and secular society) frowns on the practice of polygamy, how do you adjust for Solomon having a SLEW of wives? David? Moses?
You first must take into account the consequences of their actions. It's not like they "got away with it".
Let's flip this around a bit...
Moses: One wife, Zipporah.(Ex. 2:21)
David: His adulterous tendencies were his downfall...See: Bathsheba
Solomon: Solomon's many wives drew him into Idol worship.
And one more: Abraham endured spousal rivialry between Hagar and Sarah.
Now, on the flip side:
Noah: Called a "preacher of righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5], Noah was the only family head who was spared during the destruction of the Great Flood. He had but one wife.
Job: God called Job "My servant". Though Job was very rich and considered "the greatest man among all the people of the East", he had only one wife.
Isaac: The child of the promise had but one wife, Rebekah
Moses: Of all the Old Testament saints, Moses was the closest to God. He spoke to God face to face as a man speaks with his friend [Exodus 33:11]. Moses is also regarded as the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. God Himself even singled out Moses as a special prophet since He spoke to him face to face rather than revealing Himself in visions [Numbers 12:6-8]
Moses had only one wife, Zipporah.
Joseph and Mary: The Lord's earthly parents are a prime example of a monogamous relationship.
In summary, the lack of a specific rebuke by God is in no way to be taken as an acceptance or condoning by Him of the behavior.
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
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I want to give some credit to cjbaldw for providing some arguments for same-sex marriage amendments that are intelligent and insiteful, at least for me. He has obviously done more research than most. This doesn't make me agree with some of his viewpoints, but the other side needs more people like him. Woodencross is a strict ultra-conservative christian, and I can respect that, but the information he uses to back himself up is only credible among others who are like him. Davo obviously likes to stir things up, and is always a welcome contributor, because he gets people involved. I dont like his methods sometimes like calling people out for not addressing his points, and then doing the same to others, but it's entertaining nonetheless. ZZD is surprisingly rational about the issue considering it hits closer to home with him than anyone else on this site. JaTo continues to be prove that he reads and absorbs entirely too historical information and Tony still has his priorities right where they should be. For the most part, everyone in this thread has kept themselves in line and have avoided what could easily turn into a flame fest. Thanks to everyone for proving rational conversations can occur about controversial subjects.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
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My bad; I entirely slipped up on Moses. This is what sometimes comes of doing things from memory... 
But this doesn't address wives and concubines; a great many Old Testament figures were polygamists and nowhere (that I can find) in the OT does it specifically call them out on this practice for that reason alone. There's always something else ancillary floating about to pin the blame on it seems.
Yes, some of the greatest and most celibrated prophets were either celibate or monogamous, but many others in the OT that are celebrated as "Godly" men were not and had a bevy of wives or concubines.
If you can find where the practice is specifically prohibited, point it out to me, because I know there are a few verses in the OT that mention the practice and set some form of religious canon about it.
My point is that "marriage" even in biblical times wasn't as sarcosant as some are positioning it today. It's hard to seperate what governments thought of marriage back then, since religion and government were so closely intermixed and intertwined, but I would position that what is known to historians certainly doesn't shine pure white heavenly light on the ceremony or practice...
JaTo
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There are passages in the OT about rules for who the Levite priests could marry, as well as writing in the NT about elders in the church being a husband of just one wife.
Give me some time and I can look 'em up for ya.
Tony
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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Originally posted by dnewma04:
I want to give some credit to cjbaldw for providing some arguments for same-sex marriage amendments that are intelligent and insiteful, at least for me. He has obviously done more research than most. This doesn't make me agree with some of his viewpoints, but the other side needs more people like him. Woodencross is a strict ultra-conservative christian, and I can respect that, but the information he uses to back himself up is only credible among others who are like him. Davo obviously likes to stir things up, and is always a welcome contributor, because he gets people involved. I dont like his methods sometimes like calling people out for not addressing his points, and then doing the same to others, but it's entertaining nonetheless. ZZD is surprisingly rational about the issue considering it hits closer to home with him than anyone else on this site. JaTo continues to be prove that he reads and absorbs entirely too historical information and Tony still has his priorities right where they should be. For the most part, everyone in this thread has kept themselves in line and have avoided what could easily turn into a flame fest. Thanks to everyone for proving rational conversations can occur about controversial subjects.
I feel so left out. I wasn't mentioned at all! 
j/k
Actually, I do have to say I'm impressed with the way this thread has been going. It could have degenerated VERY quickly, and while I did fly off the handle briefly, I composed myself in an effort to keep the conversation going.
And, as always, JaTo enters, stage right... 
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The rules about the Levites are found in Leviticus 21, but I didn't see anything about just one wife in a quick scan.
The others are found in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:5-7
Tony
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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Found a few that expound on biblical law that legislate polygamy as a practice:
Exodus 21:10 and surrounding passages
Deuteronomy 21:15 and surrounding passages
...and I stand with my original statement that Moses had more than one wife. Try Numbers 12:1. Zipporah was Midianite, while this unnamed wife that is mentioned is Ethiopian. The question I have is if this wife was taken after Zipporah died, or did he take this wife when she was still alive?
I feel a tanget coming and it's of my own making. Sorry!
Anyway...
Yes, I'm buried back in the OT on this as I know that various NT apostles railed against the practice, but again, my point is that marriage isn't quite the "holy" institution that it is sometimes positioned as...
...and the SECULAR legislation being passed is taking a huge leap in ownership of the issue, where it should strictly be defined in the churches.
As a mostly conservative citizen of the US, I don't like it when judges legislate from the bench and as a citizen concerned about fairness and equality of my fellow Man/Woman, I typically don't like it when my government is legislating from the pulit and this is certainly one of those times.
Last edited by JaTo; 11/11/05 02:52 PM.
JaTo
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Hard-core CEG'er
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In Deuteronomy 17, the rules for a king state he is not to take "many" wives.
Of course, "many" is vague, but it's a great prediction of the downfall of King Solomon.
Tony
"Seems like our society is more interested in turning each successive generation into cookie-cutter wankers than anything else." -- Jato 8/24/2004
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