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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 85
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 85 |
I won't fight. K&N flow like mad but you have to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeal careful when you clean them because of their design - which can very easily be considered a flaw or a tradeoff
As I said as the fact that it is, the woven design filters better - unless you can show me that K&N filters down to 5 microns - and the green design isn't prone to unfiltered gaps in their media.
K&N flows better - but whats that at our wheels?
quarter of one HP?
I surrender. I hate it that I made you so mad. Sorry.
2005 RED GTO w/ M6
- Lingenfelter CAI
- Corsa Sport Cat-Back
- SLP LTs
- C5 Pads
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,714
Scourge of the Master Debaters
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Scourge of the Master Debaters
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,714 |
Just because I like adding fuel to fires...  My Blackstone analysis made a point of the low silicon in my sample, saying that my air filtration is excellent. I've been running a K&N for two summers (about 10,000+ miles). I have yet to clean the filter, but since it was starting to look a little dirty I was planning on it when the car comes out in spring.
Beer is my Gatorade.
Hooray Beer.
'98 "Sport" Pacific Green
'98 E0 SVT Silver Frost
Pictures
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,140
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,140 |
Interesting: Quote:
The Following Is A Summary Of The
Society Of Automotive Engineers (SAE)
Paper Number 881825 Entitled
"Correlating Lube Oil Filtration Efficiencies
With Engine Wear"
Written by David R. Staley of General Motors Corp.
AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. performed a joint study of the relationship between the level of engine oil filtration and Engine wear rates, and found finer filtration reduced the rate of Engine wear.
Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.
The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.
Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8.5 Microns and 7 Microns.
Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.
ANALYSIS
The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.
CONCLUSIONS
The researchers drew the following conclusions:
Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Gasoline Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration. Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear.
"The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter's ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system."
This would make it seem that a K&N would be marginal for dust-induced wear prevention. However, CEGers with K&Ns have great Silicon content levels in their oil. So maybe K&N under-estimates the filtration? In either case, don't let the numbers above fool you too much: this is an extremely accelerated wear situation, with dust being dumped into the crankcase. I like to trust the oil analysis, so I have a hard time believing the K&N is no good. I'll get an analysis after a long, dusty summer (I probably drive in the most dust of any CEGer) and we'll get another data point then, but I don't see any cause to trash a K&N.
And ModBoss: I wasn't trying to fight. I'd just like to see some facts with information like that. Nothing personal was meant.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 540
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 540 |
Uh, read closely that the test was "Lube oil filtration", not air. I am less inclined to look for a 2 micron air filter, but I definitely would rather have a 2 micron filter for my engine oil (the only problem is that it is impractical).
Also you have to talk an AC fine dust test with a grain of salt - controlled contamination tests tend to cause somewhat unrealistic failure modes. I will support some of the findings that argue small particles cause a great deal of wear. Large debris causes catastrophic failures - small particles cause premature wear. Believe it or not, one of the most abrasive wear items in engine oil is soot.
'98 SVT Red/midnight blue - a few mods
E0 wheels for sale - PM me
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 85
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 85 |
Wasn't really trashing K&N I was just pointing out the obvious. Are you going to deny K&N's layered design can be prone to developing their little holes if you're not real careful during the cleaning process? With the woven design there's really no need to be too careful due to the fact that their approach totally eliminates the drawbacks with the layered cotton design. Prolly why Green took a different approach in the first place.
I didn't start this pro & con thread.
All I did was throw in my 2 cents
if you need anymore facts to backup my little gripes with K&N just read each company's own cleaning instructions and their very own claims about what they can filter down to. Are they misleading or wrong about their claims on filtering or the benefits of their design?
If no then i'll consider that I relayed some facts.
Just didn't make this all up.
Im done with this thread. Im not mad, I just dont want it to turn into an ugly war about comparing a red apple to a green apple
2005 RED GTO w/ M6
- Lingenfelter CAI
- Corsa Sport Cat-Back
- SLP LTs
- C5 Pads
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2003
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As I noted in my comments, I realize the test was not a direct measurement of what we were discussing. And yet, it is a measure of particulate matter on the wear of an engine, so I thought I'd put it up. Data Point.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 540
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Posts: 540 |
People simply have to make a choice based on the info available.  I will stick with K&N, though I am not bashing the others (well, maybe Fram - lol).
'98 SVT Red/midnight blue - a few mods
E0 wheels for sale - PM me
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149 |
Originally posted by hetfield:
Just because I like adding fuel to fires... My Blackstone analysis made a point of the low silicon in my sample, saying that my air filtration is excellent. I've been running a K&N for two summers (about 10,000+ miles). I have yet to clean the filter, but since it was starting to look a little dirty I was planning on it when the car comes out in spring.
x2
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Nov 2000
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Don't use brushes or compressed air and you won't damaged the filter media. I've never found a need to do either of those things to clean my K&N's over the many years I have been using them.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
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A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,867 |
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
Uh, read closely that the test was "Lube oil filtration", not air. I am less inclined to look for a 2 micron air filter, but I definitely would rather have a 2 micron filter for my engine oil (the only problem is that it is impractical).
Air filtration is the first line of defense. Your 5 micron oil filter isn't going to protect your engine against 20 micron particles ingested into the top of the cylinder.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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