Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Transaxle You're not going to believe this one...

Jim,
I hate to feel like I've been getting slammed over the whole incident because I related what the Redline representative told me this same thing in an email before and when I was questioned about it it was based on the proof provided by the first sample.
Now your other source has pointed this out as well.

Oils are just hydrocarbon chains made up of different lengths in a very simple sense. When you look at simple hydrocarbons as an example, it follows that all oils are very similar. Obviously modern oils have much more stuff to them but here is how it works:

oils have maybe15-20 carbon atoms, solvents have much less, like octane for example is C8H18
An oil might be C20H42.
If you keep adding carbon atoms they become waxy. A wax might have 30 carbon or more.
So in the simple sense all base oils are very similar.
They have some proprietary things done to them but basically they are hydrocarbon chains.
The difference between a 5 wt oil and a 90wt is going to be in the base oil hydrocarbon chain and the additives or treatments.

So I'm saying this to point out that using a "motor oil" over an ATF isn't a step back at all based on the base oils. It is just a different spec. When you compare engine oil to atf, besides color what do you notice? It is usually a bit slimy/slipperier. We know that it has good cold weather lube properties and we know it has good additivies for wear protection. I mean it protects items like cams and lifters for hundreds of thousands of miles and protects against the cold start pressures in the bearings as well.
ATF is designed for automatic in that it protects the valve body from sludge buildup and of course lubes everything.
Hell, use mobile 1 synthetic oil that specs out to your 75w90 gear oil.

In the end I also have to point out that Redline is similarly formulated. You may find that Redline MTL is closer to Ford Honey than ATF ever was, yet both were recommended fluids.
I honestly don't think the two transmission we saw are a fair indication of the detergent capabilities of redline either. One was old and abused and the other had an ATB that produced plenty of material wear that needed to be flushed better during break-in.

These pictures brought to you by...... some dude's cell phone.

Mark

Warmonger,

My basis for saying it is a step back is if there is not a satisfactory level of the proper additives to function in a gear box.

ATF is at least somewhat of a gear oil. There are gears in an automatic transmission, although of a somewhat different style. ATF does have additives not only to help keep things clean, but also to help handle the loads that gears generate.

My sources comments were that Ford Honey is very similar to SM motor oil in terms of AW (anti wear) elements. It did have some friction modifier but not much. The viscosity is 14.9 cSt@100C (which is in the range of most 75W90 gear oils or 10W40 enginge oils). Most other manual trans gear oils have a much higher EP additive level. His final comment is that it looks like 40 weight SM engine oil with very little EP adds and most likely has a GL4 EP protection rating.

I absolutely agree that they information that was gathered on the "everlasting" thread was anything but scientific. I agree that on the face of things it looks like Red Line MTL should have worked, but we have seen some cases where it looks very suspecious. In thoses cases, it certainly wasn't very clean. It would have really helped if there would have been a used oil analysis performed on the fluid that came out of one of those failed transmissions. Until we have better information from Red Line, I'm staying away from it. I have a hard time believing there is a reasonable answer for the sludge found after 14,000 miles with discolored gears. Something is very wrong there. I can't blame the Torsen because the other Redline MTL sludge complaints were with open diffs.

However, I don't believe that Ford Honey is the only good answer either, even though it works well for me (with a moderate dose of added friction modifier). I will most assuredly be looking for alternatives when I change it next time.

Are we also not taking into consideration that MTL could have had a bad batch? Or that by slight human error, Pete could have put a different Redline product in? I too would have liked to have seen the fluid from Pete's trans be sent to Blackstone, but it's not possible now. That could have atleast told us what the sludge was composed of.

Mark

Pete's car ran nothing but MTL after the rebuild! What more do you want? I quit.