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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443 |
Originally posted by Stazi:
You guys need to get a grip on what's killing the Big 3. It's not supply chains or logisitcs, it's the fact that a major chunk of the profits made on 1 car go to pay the pensions for a handful of retirees, plus the benefits for them plus the benifits and retirement plans for the UAW workers working the line.
Retirement funding is a long term problem. What we're seeing here is a microcosm or what will eventually occur with the existing socsec gov't program. The companies underfunded the pensions, basically by borrowing from it or never paying into it in the 1st place (sound familiar?), so the funds aren't there in entirety to support the retirement base. Short term thinking is the overall problem that is plaguing American business interests as a whole, that and a lack of ethics IMHO.
Just to be clear, I'm agreeing with your point, just stating it took a while to get to where GM is today, which resulted from a series of bad decisions over the long term, most likely to solve short term problems that could and should have been solved another way.
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Unskilled workers, a lot without even a GED get paid the same amount as engineers, all because the Big 3 let the UAW get out of hand 20 years ago. NO that the baby boomers are all retiring they are facing more bills than they have money to pay with. Thus sacrifices are made and quality, standard features, materials,etc. all get cut back.
The only way that they can survive is to do what the Japanese did years ago. Declare every contract null and void, including UAW contracts and then say "OK so who want my business?" Then force them to bid hard on that business - this will work if they consider hiring a non-unionized work force as they will be able to negotiate wages/benefits that are more reasonable.
Honestly I live in the Detroit greater metro area and see all these line workers and the lives they live. Guys that are less skilled than me are earning bucu bucks, and living the big life - it's just all pear-shaped.
I'm not saying they should be forced into poverty but if when you hear about janitors earning the same if not more money,. per hour, compared ot a college graduate working for the same company, you got to think "Something is not right with this picture" 
I agree, wages should be tied to supply and demand coupled with skillset requirements.
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 678
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Posts: 678 |
Originally posted by Zoom Zoom Diva:
Unfortunately, Honda and Toyota have fooled people into liking the type of car they want to offer. We need to play the game to change their minds back to wanting OUR type of car versus trying to play their game.
You're right. What kind of real American wants a safe, reliable and afforable family car?
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193 |
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by Zoom Zoom Diva:
Unfortunately, Honda and Toyota have fooled people into liking the type of car they want to offer. We need to play the game to change their minds back to wanting OUR type of car versus trying to play their game.
You're right. What kind of real American wants a safe, reliable and afforable family car?
Hondas and Toyotas are no safer and less affordable than Fords and GM's. They do have reliability, but we can and have matched that in the past (the Buick Regal was the most reliable mid-size sedan for a while).
My problem is they can get away with charging a premium price for a dull boring appliance. It's a sad day when people expect more style from a refrigerator or a stove than a car.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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I don't think Ford has anything on the road as safe as an Accord, Sienna or Odyssey. As far as initial purchase price, I agree that Fords are cheaper, but when long term costs of ownership are factored in, I think the balance tips toward teh Japanese cars.
And speaking of safety, affordability and reliability (and a great warranty), I don't think anything touches the 2006 Sonata. If the V6 came with a 5 speed, I'd have one in my driveway right now.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,882
Addicted CEG\'er
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Addicted CEG\'er
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in another thread the Insurance frontal crash tests website link was posted. I went there and checked many of the cars ive owned and some friends cars. result in order of safety(as for the vehicles I checked): 1. my wife's 01 325--perfect 2. my friend's 97 Taurus--near perfect 3. my 98 Accord sedan 4. my 99 Contour--serious foot injury due to wheel pushing the floor in (only one with serious injuries of the four) and the only one that allowed the wheel to push into the cabin. other than the foot, still very good. go compare different vehicles and see what you think 
Originally posted by Tourgasm:
Sometimes you can mess up a word so bad that spell check doens't know what the hell you're talking about.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,220
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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You'd think a guy that owned a Ford wouldn't succumb quite as easily to the Ford-bashing, "Japanese make cars better" attitude.
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I don't think Ford has anything on the road as safe as an Accord, Sienna or Odyssey
In NHTSA ratings (Driver/Passenger/Front-Side/Rear-Side/Rollover) the ratings of those cars was:
2005 Accord -- 5/5/4/4/4
2005 Odyssey -- 5/5/5/5/4 (with one major safety concern -- doors open on impact)
2005 Sienna -- 4/5/5/5/4
The Accord was bested by two Ford Passenger Cars:
2005 Five Hundred -- 5/5/5/5/4
2005 Crown Victoria -- 5/5/5/5/5
The Taurus, being a very old holdover didn't score well, but the Fusion likely will be at least comparable to the Accord.
The Odyssey and Sienna were roughly tied with Ford's Minivan:
2005 Freestar -- 5/5/4/5/4
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As far as initial purchase price, I agree that Fords are cheaper, but when long term costs of ownership are factored in, I think the balance tips toward teh Japanese cars.
Only when factoring in depreciation, because so many people think as you do -- that Japanese cars are superior automobiles, even though that conclusion bears no relation to reality.
Remove depreciation from the equation and you end up with equal or higher costs of ownership on the Japanese automobiles, primarily due to higher parts expense.
GM has been ahead of all but Toyota in quality for years, and Ford hasn't been far behind. Honda has been slipping lately and Nissan's gone to the back of the pack. In the latest JD Power Long-Term Reliability study 7 of the Top 15 brands were American including Lincoln at #3, and Buick and Cadillac and #4 and #5 respectively. Toyota was #6, behind 3 American brands and barely ahead of Mercury at #7.
Fact of the matter is that Detroit can, and does, make just as reliabile and safe car as Japan does, and at a cheaper price too. Does that mean that it's a better car though? Not at all. To make a car that is just as reliable and just as safe as the competition faced with the incredible overhead expense that American automakers are burdened with (by their own means) they have to make cuts, and they primarily do so in materials. They might last as long but they don't look or feel as good. They also make some stupid design, engineering, and business decisions.
And I say all that owning 2 "Japanese" cars myself and no Domestics; one made in Japan one not.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
Webpage
2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Nicely said. I would like to point out that the Luxury brands are up there at the top. The reason these last so long is because old people don't dog on them like a Kia or Nissan. I know a little old lady with a black Marauder who doesn't even get the car past 3K rpm on a regular basis. Of course it's going to last forever. The same can be applied to all those Japanese cars. If some sits and dogs on a Honda just as much as he dogs on his cavalier, it ain't gonna last much longer. It's all about the type of driver each brand attracts.
J.T.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 294ci V8. Custom CAI, headers on the way...
1997 Mercury Mystique Zetec ATX
Deceased February 2006
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I don't think Ford has anything on the road as safe as an Accord, Sienna or Odyssey
Originally posted by sigma:
In NHTSA ratings (Driver/Passenger/Front-Side/Rear-Side/Rollover) the ratings of those cars was:
2005 Accord -- 5/5/4/4/4
2005 Odyssey -- 5/5/5/5/4 (with one major safety concern -- doors open on impact)
2005 Sienna -- 4/5/5/5/4
The Accord was bested by two Ford Passenger Cars:
2005 Five Hundred -- 5/5/5/5/4
2005 Crown Victoria -- 5/5/5/5/5
Darn it! That 'data' thing again; data is always getting in the way of those who chose to fabricate nonsense in their head and pass it off as fact. It is just unfair.  GOSH!
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 655
Veteran CEG\'er
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Quote:
GM has been ahead of all but Toyota in quality for years, and Ford hasn't been far behind. Honda has been slipping lately and Nissan's gone to the back of the pack. In the latest JD Power Long-Term Reliability study 7 of the Top 15 brands were American including Lincoln at #3, and Buick and Cadillac and #4 and #5 respectively. Toyota was #6, behind 3 American brands and barely ahead of Mercury at #7.
Fact of the matter is that Detroit can, and does, make just as reliabile and safe car as Japan does, and at a cheaper price too. Does that mean that it's a better car though? Not at all. To make a car that is just as reliable and just as safe as the competition faced with the incredible overhead expense that American automakers are burdened with (by their own means) they have to make cuts, and they primarily do so in materials. They might last as long but they don't look or feel as good. They also make some stupid design, engineering, and business decisions.
And I say all that owning 2 "Japanese" cars myself and no Domestics; one made in Japan one not.
I wouldn't say that Detroit can't make a good car either. The Towncars and Continentals we've had were excellent cars, but the Explorers, Windstars, Contours, T Birds and Expeditions were not up to the level of refinement of their Japanese counterparts.
As for JD power surveys, don't trust them. Ever filled out one? For every person like me who says a car with 5 problems requiring trips to the dealer in the first 4 years of ownership isn't reliable, there are 4 people who will say that their car is reliable even though it currently is sitting in the driveway with half the power equipment broken and not running correctly.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,177
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Another point with the unions, is the guaranteed wage increases. Consider that Ford's making greater losses, ask does it make sense that the workers still get pay rise after pay rise?
Without a union the company can shoot out different scenarios, including wage freezing and even wage reduction. Yes wage reduction sounds like a stupid thing ... but you ask any unemployed union worker if they would rather have been offered a pay-cut of 50c per hour rather than forced unemployment and you'll get your answer.
In this modern environment unions have absolutely no place anymore, they are dinosaurs that need to be buried. All their 'protective policies' can and infact are becoming part of mandated employment law.
The only single thing that unions are good at is throwing a spanner in the works of a company, and strangling the life out of it. They need to be fought and absolved of serious power simply for the benefit of the economy ... now if we can onl open the eyes of the little deluded dupes who run around screaming how great unions are!
It's obvious math that Ford (and all domestics) could build and sell better cars cheaper without the associated union costs mentioned. Factor into this all the 'retro-active deals' that unions win, and the millions burned on lawyers fees during negotiations and you'll no doubt have one very hefty figure. Of course the damned socialist policies will remain forever though as it's now become too costly for anybody except government to be able to take a serious stand against them.
1998.5 T-Red on Midnight Blue SVT
Build Number 5320 of 6535
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